S30 V

[Mikedoh]

Have a benchmade emissary in S30 V. Doesn’t get as sharp as other knives I sharpen at ~ the same angle and using the same stone progression . Initial burr is formed, and additional strokes taken with higher grit stones to compensate for toughness of steel. Angle is 21.75 per side, use ceramics (1.4, 1200, 1600. Then Naniwa 8k. Ceramic 0.6.) finish with leather strops with 1 and 0.5 micron diamond paste.

The angle used was same as factory angle or there abouts and set bevel with either 800 or 1000 diamond.

Ideas/tips welcomed.

[Phil Pasteur]

Hi,
If you do a search on s30V Steel, as I have, I think you will find quite a few people that say the steel doesn’t take as good an edge, nor polish as well as some others. I have been playing with some knives with D2 steel at the edge. I had just sharpened a Spyderco Military in S30 V. I was very surprised at how much “apparently” sharper and brighter the D2 gets. I have found S30V does hold an edge quite well over time though.

Phil

BTW, Why are you finising with the ceramic rather than the 8K. I know the ceramic is “rated” at a finer grit. The Naniwa 8K is much more of a polisher though. You might try finishing with it.

[Mikedoh]

I’ve finished using the 8k after the ceramics on other knives, but, no, the 0.6 ceramic was the last stone used.

[Cory]

Just to chime in I have quite a few s30v knives and I think that they sharpen up and hold an edge great. I do have to spend more time and they never do polish up as good as my other knives but I think that they are every bit as sharp and to me hold an edge a lot longer than my others in say 154cm or n680 or 5160.

[Phil Pasteur]

I guess Mike did not think he was getting the results that you do… and asking for help getting there.
So how do you get your S30V knives sharp? Maybe you can help Mike out.

Phil

Just to chime in I have quite a few s30v knives and I think that they sharpen up and hold an edge great. I do have to spend more time and they never do polish up as good as my other knives but I think that they are every bit as sharp and to me hold an edge a lot longer than my others in say 157cm or n680 or 5160.

[Cory]

I’m sorry if I didn’t help out I was just trying to say is if you spend some more time on them they will get there. I was trying to be encouraging. Like you Phil I do a lot of research and there are guys on YouTube getting awesome results on the wicked edge out of S90v which if you look it up like I have is reportedly harder to sharpen than S30v. At the end of the day though all of us use the same product and will have very similar results if uses properly. I have watched everyone of Clays videos on YouTube umpteen million times and I try to do what he does. It could also very easily be a matter of my standards of sharp vs yours. Like I said before I was just trying to be encouraging sorry if I fell short.

Cory

[Geocyclist]

Hey Mike,

How do you measure sharpness? What other steels are you comparing it against? Just curious here. I am working on a CPM M4 blade now and my next will be S30V. (both of these steels are my first on WE). I will be curious how the S30V compares.

Of all my steels, S30V seems to have the dullest finish from the factory.

There are a million ways to measure sharpness, no real right or wrong here. But there are many factors that affect edge performance, steel, angle, grind, application,….

[Mikedoh]

Hey Geo
Measure sharpness by laying blade ~ flat on arm and see how we’ll it cuts the hair.
Steels: San Mai 3, 8Cr13MoV, 440C, Acuto+, carbonV.

Spent time with polishing strokes. Went over it twice since I didn’t like my first results. Still not as sharp. Wondering if others do something extra.

[Blunt Cut]

Have a benchmade emissary in S30 V. Doesn’t get as sharp as other knives I sharpen at ~ the same angle and using the same stone progression . Initial burr is formed, and additional strokes taken with higher grit stones to compensate for toughness of steel. Angle is 21.75 per side, use ceramics (1.4, 1200, 1600. Then Naniwa 8k. Ceramic 0.6.) finish with leather strops with 1 and 0.5 micron diamond paste.

The angle used was same as factory angle or there abouts and set bevel with either 800 or 1000 diamond.

Ideas/tips welcomed.

In my experience, ceramic burnishes high wear resistant (also cobalt alloy) steels. If you are willing to try this progression usinbg what you’ve: diamond 1k(14um), Naniwa 8K, strop 1um & 0.5um. Instead of Naniwa 8K, 3um diamond would be better. A clean 1K edge should slice newsprint in all directions.

As for sharpness test – I like to push cut newsprint or phonebook paper in all directions (with grain and cross grain). Hair whittle/tree-top/hht/etc. tests depend on hair type, which are varying in high degrees, thus not a good baseline for sharpness testing. Plus, cutting newsprint/phonebook paper will expose weak/wire edge (after fourht or fifth cuts).

[Phil Pasteur]

Hi,
If you do a search on s30V Steel, as I have, I think you will find quite a few people that say the steel doesn’t take as good an edge, nor polish as well as some others. I have been playing with some knives with D2 steel at the edge. I had just sharpened a Spyderco Military in S30 V. I was very surprised at how much “apparently” sharper and brighter the D2 gets. I have found S30V does hold an edge quite well over time though.

I just wanted to say that I have reconsidered the above. First I dragged out the Spyderco Military that I talked about and went over it again. I had reprofiled this knife at 18 degrees per side. I went back to the 800 stones, as Mike said this is where he started. I went through the 1000 diamonds and the ceramics. I did the ceramics in the order 1200, 1400, 1.4 micron and .6 micron stones. Since I resurfaced my 1.4 micron ceramic, this is how I normally use these stones. I put a fine burr on both side with the 800 grit stones, then ran about 50 strokes per side at each grit level.

I also have 1 micron an 0.5 micron diamond spray (from Ken Schwartz) on the WEPS cow leather strops. I dropped about .75 degrees to around 16.25 degrees and did about 100 strokes per side with both grits. I find the knife to be very sharp. It is not the sharpest knife I have done, but it easily shaves arm hair and push cuts phone book paper in both directions.

I also did some research. The last time I looked and the places I looked all had folks complaining about S30V getting a fine edge and taking a nice polish. This time, everybody was raving about how sharp they get S30V… and how well it keeps an edge… go figure. That will teach me to talk about ancient history
🙂

One thing that came up in more than one discussion was that the Benchmade S30V was harder to get a vey sharp edge on it than other makers. I don’t know why… bu that, according to what I read, seemed to be the common wisdom.

So Mike, how many strokes did you do per side. What kind of pressure were you using? Did you examine the edge with magnification to possibly see what is going on? Have you considered reprofiling to maybe 20 degrees per side? A more acute angle on the bevel will allow you to get the blade sharper (I know this is something else that can be discussed at length, but at any rate it can be proven that cutting effort will be reduced).

Knowing exactly what you did might let us make better suggestions about how you might improve your edge.

Phil

BTW, that D2 Kershaw is still “subjectively” noticeably sharper than the Military, and much prettier…

😉

[Geocyclist]

Phil,

Please expand on why 20 degrees would be sharper. Is this because you think S30V can’t take a very shallow angle? I have heard that if you take too shallow for the steel the edge will not hold up, i.e bascially exceeded the strength of the steel.

Are there other reasons that an acuter angle is sharper?

[Phil Pasteur]

I knew that was coming

The terms edge angle and included angle can be important when talking about grinding. The edge angle is measured between the surface of an edge and a line running from the point of the cutting edge to the back edge. The included angle is the sum of the edge angles. All other things being equal, the smaller the included angle the sharper the blade and the easier it is to damage the edge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind

There has been many discussions about this that I have read in many places. I think the consensus (a hard thing to find on the Internet) is that the smaller the included angle the finer an edge can be put on it and the better it cuts. The thinner bevel also reduces cutting force requirements because it offers less friction.

Check out some of the Japnese knife discussions where they take the super hard steels to at or under 10 degrees on a single bevel… for ease of cutting… sharpness!

As with anything there are trade offs. If the steel will not support the angle such that the edge rolls or chips out, then you are wasting your time. Softer but tough steels often have a larger included angle so that they will not deform. Harder high carbide steels can be brittle and chip out. The whole idea of super steels is to combine materials to try to get the best of all worlds. They look for toughness, abrasion resistence, hardenability edge retention and fine grain structure… etc. S30V is claimed to have good ratings in all of these, especially CPM touts its increase in toughness. From what I have seen it is typically hardened to 60 to 61 Rc

What does that mean, well you should easily be able to run 20 degrees per side with no problems. On that Military, I have run 17 degrees per side for over a year and had no problems with chipping or edge rolling. Now I admit, I have not chopped hardwood with it nor done any batonning… nor cut anything harder than plastic banding material and tie wraps, but it has survived lots of medium type use like a champ.

As with edge finish, much of what you decide to do with bevel angle will be dictated by the use you have for the blade… and, of course, what the steel will support.

BTW, all of the CRKT knives that I have in S30V are stock 20 degrees per side. The Spyderco I talk about above came to me at close to 20 degrees per side. Folks on KnifeForums swear S30V is good for 15 degrees per side… Almost 22 degrees per side on his Emissary will just make it a bit harder for Mike to get the kind of performance he seems to want. Don’t take this as meaning that I think more acute is better in all cases. Fit the bevel to the steel and your use patterns.
You are just less likely to get razor like performance with a large included angle.

Phil

[Mikedoh]

Hi Phil
I appreciate your investigation into S30.
Strokes are all done with only enough pressure to keep the stone “flat” against the edge.
Strokes per side, over 300. Trying to polish things out
Strops were just 20-30 per side.

Now, multiply this by 2+. For stones greater than 1k, since I didn’t like my initial results. Stropping was still 20-30.

It puzzles me since I normally have no problem producing an edge, and this one is not as sharp as the other edges I get, nor as shiny.

I’m willing to decrease the angle to 20 or less. Any knife I carry, I just usually figure I should keep a stout edge on it so that it is up to possibly demanding tasks.

Here’s something interesting, I emailed Benchmade and asked what angles they used on ther knives, and for a chart if they had one. They replied that all of their knives are sharpened at 15 degrees per side. So, maybe I goofed when I figured the angle using the marker . . . But then, it seems like I should have had an easier time sharpening at 21 per side.

I only did cursory glances at the edge /c magnification, as I expected it would all work out.

[Mark76]

I guess most appropriapriate remarks have already been made. S30V is much more wear resistant than some other steels, so it simply takes a bit more effort to sharpen. It also doesn’t take an edge like steel like 13C26 or most carbon steels. That said, I can get it wickedly sharp. It easily shaves arm hair. I just cannot get it so sharp that I can comfortably shave my face with it.

Some time ago I asked Spyderco whether their S30V knives could hold a 15 degree angle and their answer was a “yes” without reservations.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Phil Pasteur]

Hi Phil
I appreciate your investigation into S30.
Strokes are all done with only enough pressure to keep the stone “flat” against the edge.
Strokes per side, over 300. Trying to polish things out
Strops were just 20-30 per side.

Now, multiply this by 2+. For stones greater than 1k, since I didn’t like my initial results. Stropping was still 20-30.

It puzzles me since I normally have no problem producing an edge, and this one is not as sharp as the other edges I get, nor as shiny.

How much difference do you see? I think it is an accepted idea that S30V doesn’t polish as well as som others. BTW, when I went back and searched, I still found lots of folks complaining that they could not get this steel as sharp as the were used to getting other steels. I have found the same thing, but I certainly think the Military is plenty sharp. It just doesn’t have that last little bit of keenness that some of my other blades do. So far, from your description of what you did, I really can’t make any suggestions on what to change, other than trying a more acute angle.

I’m willing to decrease the angle to 20 or less. Any knife I carry, I just usually figure I should keep a stout edge on it so that it is up to possibly demanding tasks.

What would you do that you would worry about 20 degrees with S30V not holding up to?

Here’s something interesting, I emailed Benchmade and asked what angles they used on ther knives, and for a chart if they had one. They replied that all of their knives are sharpened at 15 degrees per side. So, maybe I goofed when I figured the angle using the marker . . . But then, it seems like I should have had an easier time sharpening at 21 per side.

I agree, but it sounds like you have done all of the right things…and then some!

I only did cursory glances at the edge /c magnification, as I expected it would all work out.

It might be worth taking a close look to see if you can determine what is going on. Examining the edge visually can be very instructive, especially when you are having problems.

We also might ask Mark to let us know what he does for his S30V blades, as he seems to have some success with it.

Phil

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