Having some problems
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- This topic has 14 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 02/19/2015 at 3:57 am by
Pat.
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02/18/2015 at 1:03 pm #23527
Im having problems getting the angle to stay consistant through out the sharpening process. I feel like i spend more time messing around with the angle cube then sharpening. Everytime i lift the stone and place it back on the blade it reads different. And then depending on where i place it on the blade it reads different from the heel to the tip its always different. Every knife ive done so far the bevel comes out un even. The hours of videos ive watched these guys either use no angle cube or use it once at the beginning and get a perfect edge. Weather im switching stones or just pausing for a minute everytime i put the stone back on the blade its reading different. Does this happen to everybody? And im also wondering how i can keep a consistant angle from heel to tip. Because according to my angle cube everytime i slide the stone down the blade the degree changes.
Attachments:02/18/2015 at 2:24 pm #23529Hey Kyle, welcome to the crazy club. Let me ask you a few questions and try to answer yours at the same time…
The angle cube is not perfect, it has a +/- of a few fractions of a degree. If you measure the angle, say directly in line with the vise(for consistency), then remove it and place it back at approximately the same spot, how much variation are your getting? .05 degrees or so? Thats normal in my experience and I dont think twice about it and you can get exceptional results regardless.
Oh almost forgot there are entire forum threads dedicated to discussion of the wiggle in the joints and the play in the rods, custom brass bushings, and of course where you hold the paddles. :silly: All of this will cause minor variations in the angle cube readout, not counting the inherent limitation of the cube itself.
2nd part of your question regarding the angle changing as you move it along the blade length. The short answer is yes the angle will change. The are posts here on the forum that go into great detail regarding the math, positioning, angles, arc of the rods, etc etc, to minimize the angle variation. Heck Ive even seen a computer simulation to find the sweet spot with graphs and trigonometry I think. :S
Josh has posted the goto quick reference video addressing this and other issues. Im still going back and catching little tidbits each time I watch it:
Hope that helps! I personally adjust the angle of the knife in the vise as shown in the video & lock it down. Then I use the angle cube to adjust the sharpening angle, lift it off and place it back to double check, and then I lock that down and move on with my process.
02/18/2015 at 5:03 pm #23534Kyle,
Not sure how technical you are, but this may help in case the videos do not get you the understanding of “why?”
Something you may or may not think about is the grind of your knife…that controls how you end up on the WE.
Most knifes are thicker toward the tip, so the bevel angle is higher than back toward the heel where the steel is thinner; therefore, changing the angle of sharpening from heel to tip keeps the bevel width, which is what most folks are trying to achieve, constant from heel to tip. If you were to seek to sharpen to the same angle the whole length of the edge, the bevel will increase in width from heel to tip as you would have to shave away more steel at the tip due to the increased steel thickness at that part of the blade.
If you are seeking an even bevel width from heel to tip, the WE gets you there by having the knife clamped in the vice at a constant position and the arms/paddles move, vs the knife moving over a constant angle such as with the Spyderco Sharpmaker or other fixed position sharpener. As the WE paddles move over the knife edge, the angle changes slightly to go with the curve of the edge which keeps the bevel width constant, if you put it in the vice to achieve this.
With all the above being said, when I sharpen a knife, as the videos show, I will first “sharpie” both sides, then do a swipe with 1000 grit to minimize any edge or bevel damage to see where the sharpie is being removed.
If you notice the sharpie is being removed closer toward the edge as you move from heel to tip, then you have to raise the tip a bit while keeping the heel in the same position, which will lower the angle at the tip and bring it more into line with the heel. Do the opposite if the sharpie is removed lower toward the tip than the heel.
This assumes you are clamping the knife at about the middle of the blade and not too far toward the heel or tip (this is for most nonFFG knives).
The above shows the amount of flexibility you have with the WE, but you have to learn how to work it to your advantage, understanding what causes the angles to increase/decrease along the edge as you position the knife.
Frankly, an even bevel width is usually sought after for two reasons: 1) a thicker steel at the tip keeps it stronger since it is a good idea to have the puncturing end of the knife thicker; 2) aesthetics, because if you truly sharpen the heel and the tip at the exact same angle, then you will result in a wide bevel the closer you get to the tip since the tip is thicker steel, than at the heel.
There are exceptions to the above (full recurves, etc…), but this is the technical explanation behind why the videos teach what they do.
Once you figure out how to manipulate the blade position in the vice to get what you want, then to sharpen how you have to to even up both sides, then you can adjust your approach to handle asym grinds/bevels, recurves, etc….
Let us know if you have more questions.
(to the experts, if I am misspoken and in error in any of the above, please chime in)
02/18/2015 at 6:55 pm #23541Hey Kyle, welcome to the crazy club. Let me ask you a few questions and try to answer yours at the same time…
The angle cube is not perfect, it has a +/- of a few fractions of a degree. If you measure the angle, say directly in line with the vise(for consistency), then remove it and place it back at approximately the same spot, how much variation are your getting? .05 degrees or so? Thats normal in my experience and I dont think twice about it and you can get exceptional results regardless.
Oh almost forgot there are entire forum threads dedicated to discussion of the wiggle in the joints and the play in the rods, custom brass bushings, and of course where you hold the paddles. :silly: All of this will cause minor variations in the angle cube readout, not counting the inherent limitation of the cube itself.
2nd part of your question regarding the angle changing as you move it along the blade length. The short answer is yes the angle will change. The are posts here on the forum that go into great detail regarding the math, positioning, angles, arc of the rods, etc etc, to minimize the angle variation. Heck Ive even seen a computer simulation to find the sweet spot with graphs and trigonometry I think. :S
Josh has posted the goto quick reference video addressing this and other issues. Im still going back and catching little tidbits each time I watch it:
Hope that helps! I personally adjust the angle of the knife in the vise as shown in the video & lock it down. Then I use the angle cube to adjust the sharpening angle, lift it off and place it back to double check, and then I lock that down and move on with my process.
Yea when i place the stone back on im gettin anywhere from like .5-.8 of a difference. How much wiggle room do you have before you start making a noticeable difference? .5 of a degree? 1 degree? Thank you for the video i will be trying that tape trick next time and update.
02/18/2015 at 7:01 pm #23543The angle cube should not change more than a couple tenths of a degree max, else you may not have the knife well clamped in the vice or your arms are moving or something isn’t tightened down well. Else, your angle cube may be out of sorts and a new one is in order.
When I use the angle cube, if I am within 1 degree total between sides (say L is 20 and R is 20.5), I am good. If a degree or more, than I will move one side in or out, to get it within that degree.
Additionally, I really recommend the extended rods from Oldawan tools, which go with the upgraded ball joint arms. I got 3 inch longer arms and I really have much more flexibility in my strokes without having to be concerned with the paddles coming off the arms on some strokes.
02/18/2015 at 7:52 pm #23547The angle cube should not change more than a couple tenths of a degree max, else you may not have the knife well clamped in the vice or your arms are moving or something isn’t tightened down well. Else, your angle cube may be out of sorts and a new one is in order.
When I use the angle cube, if I am within 1 degree total between sides (say L is 20 and R is 20.5), I am good. If a degree or more, than I will move one side in or out, to get it within that degree.
Additionally, I really recommend the extended rods from Oldawan tools, which go with the upgraded ball joint arms. I got 3 inch longer arms and I really have much more flexibility in my strokes without having to be concerned with the paddles coming off the arms on some strokes.
So are you adjusting the angle between every grit? Because it seems to me that on mine the degree is always changing. I just dont get it, why i cannot get this thing to stay at a consistant angle. Wasnt that the whole point of the w/e. How accurate do you find this without the angle cube? I. Just set a knife up set the left side to 20 degrees but the angle cube reads 18.05. I want to do 40 degree inclusive so to get the angle cube to read 20 degree i have it set at 22 on the machine, the right side it is set on 21 and was reading 20.5 but then when i took the stone off and put it back on its reading 19.4, then if i lift it again and place it back its reading 18.5. Maybe i need a new angle cube, this one is brand new though so i dont know how it could have got messed up already. This is very aggravating though, investing hundreds of dollars into this and cant get it to work the right way.
I now have towards the heel of the blade reading 20 degrees but the farther i go to the tip it changes to 19.80,19.50,19.20,19. I tried adjusting how im clamping it and its not changing a thing. It still reads different everytime.
02/18/2015 at 8:59 pm #23551It’s a common problem with a a handful of causes (if not more?). The first thing that came to my mind upon seeing your Spyderco is that it’s a ffg. If I’m way off, please excuse me as I’m just kinda glancing thru this topic.
Again, here’s Josh laying down some truth for all us newbies. Hope this helps.
WEPS – How to adjust for blade cant in vise:
02/18/2015 at 9:05 pm #23552It’s a common problem with a a handful of causes (if not more?). The first thing that came to my mind upon seeing your Spyderco is that it’s a ffg. If I’m way off, please excuse me as I’m just kind of glancing over things.
Again, here’s Josh laying down some truth for all us newbies. Hope this helps.
WEPS – How to adjust for blade cant in vise:
NOTE: Josh made a small mistake with this math. 3.3 ÷ 2 = 1.65, not 1.15. But that’s obviously not a really a big deal. The important thing is to understand what he’s getting at.
02/18/2015 at 9:16 pm #23553Sounds like you are measuring at different points of the blade…you should only measure at one point of the blade and let that determine what angle you want to sharpen at. Watch the above video from Josh at how he measures…that should clear it up.
02/18/2015 at 10:25 pm #23556Kyle, how old is your angle cube? I would consider checking the battery in it… Mine was giving me wonky readings after I had been using it a year, I ended up replacing the battery and it was fine I believe.
02/18/2015 at 11:28 pm #23558It sounds like you are setting the arms based on the angle marks on the base rod and then measuring with an angle cube to find a reading that is inconsistent with what the base rod says. The base rod is more or less a guide to get you in the general area and are calibrated based on a certain blade height in the vise. If you get a knife with a really tall blade, you may have the arms set at 17 on the base rod when actually the angle is 15 according to the angle cube. In short, ignore the marks on the arms.
The right side is usually not consistent with the left side due to the left side of the vise being fixed. There were some videos made a couple years ago showing that if you aren’t using an angle cube to move the right side arm outwards 1 degree to make the angles match. This was just a general rule of thumb as people were complaining a lot about always having a bigger bevel on that side than the left. If you lock a really thick blade in the vise, you may find the right side arm has to be kicked out 2 or 3 degrees to measure the same angle as the left.
As far as where on the blade to measure, I always lay the stone on the blade making sure to keep it lined up with the side of the vise and will sorta pinch the side of the vise to create a guide to keep the stone between. Yes the angle may change slightly at different points on the blade but this is my reference point and where I measure at every grit change so that things stay consistent. I also put the cube on the same place on the stone every time always lined up with the topmost edge of the stone. These are just methods I use to try and reduce as much variability as possible.
You don’t have to measure between every grit change, but I have enough variability in my stones, sometimes up to probably 0.8 degrees, that I like to keep it as close to perfect as possible which each grit. And that’s the beauty of the micro adjust arms because with experience I know that a quarter turn (90 degree turn) of the screw yields a change of 0.1 degree and a half turn (180 degree turn) changes the angle 0.2 degrees. I can put the cube on and see the angle and I know exactly how many turns of the screw will put me really really close to perfect. Yes it takes longer, but I’m in no hurry. Everyone has their own philosophy of why they do what with this system, but this is just my experience and YMMV.
02/18/2015 at 11:44 pm #23560Take a deep breath guys…
The initial angle setting is for reference only. As you swing the arms backward and forward, the angle is the same only where the edge is at the same height as the point where the initial angle was set. You simply cannot get the same angle reading if the contact point varies in height. Not to worry, the real objective is to have the angle be the same relative to the apex at that point.
This is best accomplished by clamping the blade according to Josh’s method of matching the curve of the blade to the same point on the stones as they move along the edge.
02/19/2015 at 12:36 am #23564So pretty much i take one measurment and make sure that i stay consistant with that original angle measurement through out the process? So i dont have to take a bunch of different measurements through the length of the blade to make sure both sides are at the same degree? Evan if towards the heel is say 20 degrees and then towards the tip is say 18? As long as that original spot stays consistant on both sides i should get an evan bevel? It just doesnt make sense how if my angle is anywhere from 1-3 degrees off between the heel and the tip how it will come out evan. I just watched his video and that did help me understand how the ffg blades can throw everything off. And that explains why the native 5 i did came out uneven.
02/19/2015 at 2:11 am #23566Regarding evenness, I think what you’re referring to is the width of the bevel being the same from heel to tip. This is what the whole sweet spot thing is about and the sharpie method. Josh’s video showing the tape on the stone and following the curve of the blade is another method to find the sweet spot. The sweet spot is found by moving the blade forward or backward in the vise or by tilting the blade, once you find this at the angle you have set, this will allow you to have an even bevel from heel to tip.
You will never have the same angle reading at the heel as you do the tip, maybe except if you have a really short wharncliffe.
02/19/2015 at 3:57 am #23571The reason it makes sense is because the steel at the tip is thicker than the heel.
So pretty much i take one measurment and make sure that i stay consistant with that original angle measurement through out the process? So i dont have to take a bunch of different measurements through the length of the blade to make sure both sides are at the same degree? Evan if towards the heel is say 20 degrees and then towards the tip is say 18? As long as that original spot stays consistant on both sides i should get an evan bevel? It just doesnt make sense how if my angle is anywhere from 1-3 degrees off between the heel and the tip how it will come out evan. I just watched his video and that did help me understand how the ffg blades can throw everything off. And that explains why the native 5 i did came out uneven.
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