Chosera 5000/10000 or super fine ceramic?

[wickededge]

Also a quick follow up to my previous question. If the Super fine is still sloughing off some powder, doesn’t the water make the stone softer, which seems to me that it would have the effect of making it more powdery, especially when it dries?

I don’t think the powder coming off is actually stone wear… more like a ‘coating’ (for lack of a better word) that comes off, usually all on the first knife. After that, it’s a solid stone. Wetting them as Clay recommended doesn’t soften them. (Note that he’s just wetting, not soaking them).[/quote]

CBW is right. The manufacturer calls it the “kiln layer” and with this batch we had them use a process called ‘shot siding’ that vibrates the stones to remove some of the ‘kiln layer’ though there is still a small amount of powder on them that needs a sharpening or two to knock off. I think using the water helps to clean that layer off.

-Clay

[Scott]

Thanks again. I can’t believe how addicting this sharpening is. I just find myself stroking and sharpening for the pleasure and relaxation of it. I know what that sounds like, but it really is very de-stressing and relaxing. I guess that is a benefit of being retired and having all the time in the world to play. But watching those scratches slowly and methodically disappear and change to a beautiful mirror finish and then feeling it cut through paper has become my new pastime. I even enjoy the sound of the knife cutting along the paper. I purchased a few cheap throw away knives to experiment with and break in my stones , but now that I have sharpened them so beautifully, I need to go to the hardware store to buy a good metal file to dull them all and start over again.

🙂 :cheer: 😉 😛 :ohmy: 😆 :woohoo:

[Geocyclist]

Hey Scott, I will jump in with a question so you are not alone.

I am planning to get a WEPS PP I or II and still figuring out what else to get. I will get 1 or more strops to end with.

My question is what finishing stones should I get for after 1000# diamond to lead into stropping. I was thinking about some Choseras. Is the water a messy problem? Does water drip down to the joint or just straight down onto the base? (which I would drape a towel).

Sounds like with 2k/3k Choseras is fine enough to get to point of stropping.

Normally I would avoid anything messy but I am coming from the sharpmaker and don’t care for their ceramics. They work OK but have no feel or feedback. In the end the blade gets sharper than when I started but I can’t tell by stone feedback. Since I have heard good things about the Chosera I am leaning this way.

But I have also heard the WE ceramics are different than other ceramics.

The knives I sharpen are users so I am willing to spend 100’s of stokes per stone to get the perfect re-profile. But after that I would want something easy (2-4 stones then 2 strops) to touch up. When I am good I free hand strop everyday to really keep the edge up. Sometimes I don’t get around to it and I need more touch up work.

My goal is to have a mirror polish edge with no scratches visible with the naked eye. I will use a 10x to 30x loupe for inspection, but I don’t really care about perfection at 500x. I don’t have a microscope anyway.

[Scott]

I don’t think we are alone at all in this question. When they came out with the PP2 they offered progression from 100 to 1000 in diamond stones and it jumped all the way up to the micro ceramic before going into strops and nano paste. What I have found in my experimenting in the last couple of days since getting my PP2 is that the gap between 1000 and micro ceramic is rather a big one. I think you can reduce scratched from the 1000 with the micro but we are talking about a lot of strokes. both on the 1000 and on the ceramic. Now, it can be done and on my first serious knife which was a ZT 0560, I got my knife as sharp as I can imagine a knife could be and a “semi mirror” finish. Semi mirror, by my definition is reflective where you can see print when the blade is held perpendicular to print on paper and good light but not glossy smooth. There were still a great deal of very perceptible albeit faint scratches visible to my naked eye. Also remember that a few scratches make the blade cut better if they give some tooth to the edge also.

I think that with something to bridge the gap between the 1000 diamond stone and the micro ceramic to reduce scratches and allow the micro and strops to polish more I could have gotten a glossier shinier mirror finish easier. When I got my PP2 there was no super fine ceramic available because of production problems. I was just about ready to pull the trigger on the Choseras, but they are waterstones and do require some maintenance and adjustments not needed with the WEPS stones. Now, I think as of today the super fine has become available. Clay has said some nice things about it and on his recommendation, I have ordered it. I have some concerns based on a few comments in a couple of threads referring to it as “lightweight”, “powdery” saying the edges chip easily and according to some it is not nearly as smooth or dense as the micro fine ceramic, which I totally love.

I hope to get it by this weekend, and will give it a good workout. If it doesn’t bridge the gap well, I will go to the Chosera, but for the cost and mess of using water stones, I wanted to give the ceramic a chance. I do hope the super is actually super. It would be nice to see a youtube on the super, but I have not found any, probably because it hasn’t been very available . There are some decent Youtubes on the WE Chosera waterstones if you look around.

They do need to soak and remain wet while in use and they are thicker so the angle changes by about 2 degrees on each side when you go from WE stones to Choseras, but the amount of dripping is pretty minimal depending on which stones you are looking at. Also it is not clear to me which stones are the right ones to bridge the gap. The 2000/3000 falls right in line with the progression from the 1000 but still leaves a noticeable gap between the 3000 and the micro which is about equal to the 10000 chosera stone. So the 5000/10000 stone my be too fine to bridge the gap by itself and the 2000/3000 may not work by itself. I don’t know from personal use and I must say, there is a lot I don’t know about sharpening in general. In a perfect world where money grows on trees, I would probably like to have both of the mentioned stone sets which would make the super obsolete. I don’t mind the extra work since I sharpen for the fun of sharpening and I am already into this whole thing by way over a $1000 already. I am embarrassed to tell anyone how much I have spent actually considering I do not derive any income or really need a mirror shine on my knives.

Anyone reading this hopefully with some personal experience, please jump in, I would love to hear from you.

[Phil Pasteur]

First, check out these links:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/wicked-edge-weps-stock-diamond-ceramic-microscopic-progression/

http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/wicked-edge-weps-chosera-stone-microscopic-progression/

http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/wicked-edge-weps-shapton-pro-stone-microscopic-progression/

They are good accounts of three WEPS progressions using different stones. Tom Blodgett also does a real good job of talking about how the different grits in the progressions work.

So, Scott asked for specific experience with the Chosera stones and how the 500/10K might fit into his progression. I have all of the Choseras that WEPS offers. 400/600 800/1000 2000/3000 and 5000/10K. I do not have any of the WEPS ceramics (yet).

In most cases i use the WEPS diamonds, then “go back” to the 600 choseras and through the entire progression form there. If I am doing more of a utility edge, I go up to the Cosera 1000 or maybe the 2000 and strop form there. Sometimes I stop stropping with 6/3 micron paste (using DMY paste at the moment). On a real OCD effort I will got through the 10K chosera and stop down to 0.025 micron CBN on nanocloth.

I can get what most people would consider to be a mirror edge just going up through the 2000 grit Chosera stones and stropping. This would not make much sense if we only looked at the size of the grit claimed for the Choseras. The unified grit chart says that the 1000 grit diamonds are finer than the 1K chosera grit.

Bottom line is that there are many factors that influence the results on steel other than grit size. Tom talks about this in his progressions.

I can say that I have been very happy woith the results as far as edge refinement as well as impressive relfctivity after going up through the Chosera progression to 10K. Again I can’t compare the ultrafine cermics, but I do have the 15K Shapton stones as well as 12K SuperStones. These should be in the grit range of the cermics. Neither give visibly as pretty an edge as the choseras. As to edge refinement, I don’t have the magnification to see it, and can’t really detect the difference in sharpness with the tests that I use.

When you ask about getting an edge with no visible scratches at 30X, I can just tell you that I have never done that. I have got to maybe 90% scratch free after several hours and hundreds of strokes at each grit. I have gotten to where it is real dificult to see any scratches lokking at 90 degrees to the bevel, but shining a light along the edge using magnification, there are scratches. This, of course, pisses me of greatly!
🙂

What to take away from this? You can’t make decisions on what will work for you by looking at grit sizes. The binder of the stone, the grit concentration, the release of the abrasive, the friability of the abrasive, the creation of “mud”… all add up to make more difference than just advertised grit size.

As to the question fo using waterstones dry… DON’T!. Thye are desinged to be used wet and will only work properly whe used wet. I even use the Shaptons and Naniwa SS stones wet, even though they are “splash and go” stones… I splash them regularly. Don’t get me wrong, they do not have to be used dripping, running, sopping wet. You don’t have to use the WEPS in a tub or tray. I soak the stones that require it for 10 minutes or so, the splash and go stones for 5 minutes. By the time they are on the WEPS and arms are adjusted they do not really drip. About every 25 or 30 strokes I spritz them with a couple of drops of water. Cleanup is a matter of running some water over them while rubbing them against each other for a few strokes, then letting them dry. The mess and additional work in doing this is minimal. The results are well worth it.

BTW, I check and adjust the angles with the cube to within .1 degree at every stone change. Resetting for the Choseras is not a big deal to me. With the new arms, I can do it without even moving the slider on the base bar… If you go with the entire chosera progression, you make significant adjustments only once after the diamonds and when going back to the strops.

If your can afford a set or two of the Chosera stones, I would reccomend that you try them!
(And all of the ceramics, of course).

I tend to think, and maybe it is just justification fo buying all of this sharpening stuff, that if you have more options and take the time to experiment with them, you will be more likely to hit upon that perfect combination for each and every knife in your collection… I bet that collection will grow too..
🙂
Rabbit hole here we go!

Phil

[Geocyclist]

Phillip, thanks for the detailed response, plus karma to you.

In short you answered my questions. I had planned to go “back” 1 grit in Chosera’s after the diamonds. It is good to hear they are not a “dripping mess” all over the WEPS.

I did not mean to imply I want a perfect edge at 30x, just that I would only inspect at 30x or so with a loupe but not go crazy with a micro scope. I would like the best finish possible to the naked eye.

I have read all 3links word for word. Thanks for posting it again. It is a great study. The photos help a lot too. These studies lead me toward Chosera’s due to the feel and smoothness. Since I don’t plan to go to 10k or 30k stones it doesn’t really matter to me who has the finest polishing stone. Plus I get good results now with stropping.

Thanks again for the help. 🙂

[Scott]

Philip,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was very interested in what you said and I am somewhat inclined to believe that there is a place in the line up for Chosera stones, with or without the ceramics for those like me who are more interested in the trip than in the destination of sharpening.

I am still curious if someone can address the question of which set of the Chosera waterstones fit best in between the 1000 diamond stones and the micro fine ceramic. This is especially relevant in light of your comments regarding the grit measure not reflecting the actual results in real life.

At this point I figure in for a penny, in for a pound. I can just see Clay smiling broadly as we sell his Choseras for him. Again, I think this website and forum are brilliant on Clays part. It not only serves the knife sharpening community, but keeps interest and motivation at peak. It’s win – win for all. 😛 😛 😛

Phil (or anyone interested), here are some Youtubes showing the Chosera stones for WE in use along with results in progression if you haven’t already seen them. Hope this helps.

[Phil Pasteur]

Just curious. Did you look at the links in my last post. The videos you posted are done by Tom B, as were the blog posts that I linked. He has more detail in the blog posts. Take a read of them when you have time…

“I am still curious if someone can address the question of which set of the Chosera waterstones fit best in between the 1000 diamond stones and the micro fine ceramic. This is especially relevant in light of your comments regarding the grit measure not reflecting the actual results in real life.”

I hope that you get something on this. Not sure how many are using the Ceramics and the Choseras. I can’t directly answer it, as I have none of the ceramics. I plan to remedy that soon. I plan on talking to Kyle about it in the morning.

I would think that Clay feels like the super fine ceramics fill the gap. Only by guessing would I say that the 800/1000 and the 2000/3000 would get you there nicely. The 5000 is a nice stone, but I often skip it and the 10K for a great useable, resonably agressive and still real pretty edge. I am not sure what adding the microfiine ceramics to that progression will do as far as the mirror edge is concerned. Possibly dull it (not the edge, the shine), as the Choseras are great polishers, even in the coarser grits. By grit size, you could get some edge refinement, but stropping can get you there as well.

It is all so complicated
👿

Don’t obsess about getting a progression that covers every 500 or 1000, or even a few thousand grit sizes. There are lots of folks that will tell you going from a 1000 grit Norton to an 8000 grit is just fine.
Results is what you really want, not engineering continuity…
🙂
I was exactly where you are with the WEPS a couple of years ago. I bought stones in pursuit of the goal of absolute grit continuity that I seldom use “in real life” these days. I read Tom taling about the Shaptons, so I had to have some of them, only to find that they made things really sharp, but left more scratches…. Damn, what do I really want??
🙂

I will see if I can find some of the external threads where people swear that 600 grit and stropping is the absolute best way to go. Check the sharpening DB here. You will be amazed at how many stop with the 1000 grit diamonds… and maybe a bit of stropping.

I know well that is not what you want to hear…
🙂 Been there, done that!

Keep in mind something I said before… basically, You will never know until you try… I didn’t!
Buy them all !! You won’t be happy until you do.
🙂

Phil

[Scott]

I did read the linked sites you referenced. They are great and very informative, thanks for that. I only wanted to show anyone interested what the Choseras looked like in use. I thought that a “water stone” had to be dripping and messy and the slurry was difficult to deal with and so forth. These Youtubes seem to show that they are really not that big a deal. So I thought it might be interesting to some.

I have to remind myself that this is still new and I get pretty enthusiastic when I start doing something new and interesting. I am pretty sure that in time I will go out to the garage and see all my stones boxed up and wonder what I was thinking at the time. But for now and hopefully quite awhile longer, I will still enjoy all this fun stuff and not break the bank in the process.

[Chris]

I don’t think the powder coming off is actually stone wear… more like a ‘coating’ (for lack of a better word) that comes off, usually all on the first knife.

These are mine after only a couple of knives.

(1600)

(1200)

I’m guessing the final layer will appear after the white dots join?
At the edges, some of the white dots are chips.

One of the 1600 sides has a depression.

Also the stones have gaps at one end compared to the micro’s.

Apologies for picture quality. (iPad 2)

[Scott]

My only reference at this time is my micro ceramic stones which you showed in the photo. I wonder what might the life of the super ceramic be in relation to the micro? Say half as many blades as a reference or 3/4 as many or might it be just as durable as the micro once the surface of the stone matures? Just going by the pictures it looks like it would disintegrate or wear away much faster than the micro ceramic. (which by the way is twice the price).

[Chris]

Just going by the pictures it looks like it would disintegrate or wear away much faster than the micro ceramic.

I would like to see some pics of Clays set he has used for ever.
As now I have no idea what to expect.

edit – Perhaps also some pics of the new (improved) ones after a couple of knives?
Do they still look like mine?

[Phil Pasteur]

Chris,
The question is… the important thing, how did they work on steel? How did they leave the edge? Are you happy with the results so far?

Phil

BTW… I am thinking about buying some of these…

Just going by the pictures it looks like it would disintegrate or wear away much faster than the micro ceramic.

I would like to see some pics of Clays set he has used for ever.
As now I have no idea what to expect.

edit – Perhaps also some pics of the new (improved) ones after a couple of knives?
Do they still look like mine?[/quote]

[cbwx34]

I’m guessing the final layer will appear after the white dots join?

I don’t think mine ever looked like that…
but I don’t think this is the answer. Mine are still dotted, but they don’t “smoke”, at least not that I can see.
Maybe it’s when all the white dots are visible? Your 1600 stones look like they have a coating over them, or at least areas that show no dots.
Have you ever tried rubbing them together or lapping them a little bit?

[wickededge]

Here are mine:

The old set is on the left and I’ve been using them a lot for the last three years, have used them on literally hundreds of knives. The new set on the right has been used on four knives now – 1x 4″ hunting knife, 2x 14″ scimitars, 1x 3.5″ EDC. I’ve cleaned the old set many times, both with the Superaser and by lapping them with my fine diamond plates. I haven’t cleaned the new ones yet. Measured the thickness of the new set vs the old and got the following values in the middle of the stone which actually includes both stones, the handle and platens: New=1.155″ Old=1.143″ for a difference of 0.012″ so not much wear for all that use. I measured the old stones along their entire length and they are very consistent so I think the reduction in thickness has come from the little bit of lapping I’ve done and not from sharpening, otherwise they’d show more loss in the middles.

Attachments:

• superfine-3.jpg
• superfine-2.jpg
• superfine-1.jpg

-Clay

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