Chosera 5000/10000 or super fine ceramic?

[Scott]

It seems to me that the super fine has a few (minor) technical problems in manufacturing and are not available in any case. I would like a set of stones to bridge the gap between 1000 grit and micro fine ceramic stones to get a fine mirror finish. I noticed that the Chosera waterstone 5000 is the equivalent of a 1600 grit and presumably the 10000 would be something less than the courser side of the Micro fine if I understand correctly. I know the Chosera is double the price of the super fine and requires water when applying which seems a bit messy using the clamp since there is no way to catch the run off.

A couple of questions have occurred to me. Could the waterstone be used with out water using the guided rods and what is the effect of that? Why is the Chosera so much more expensive? Does this set of stones actually bridge the gap I described to make it easier to eliminate scratches from the diamond stones or is it just not a necessary step to get to the mirror polish using the 1000 diamond to the micro fine ceramic and then to stropping?

Thanks

Scott

[Lukas Pop]

Hi Scott,

do you already have 800/1000 diamond and micro ceramic? You get this progress if you buy Pro-Pack II, so it should be OK. According to this forum and Mark’s blog, coarse side of microceramics are quite agressive, more than 1200 ceramics.
I think that Choseras are more similar to micro than super ceramics, so have both is unnecessary. But if you want to experiment, you can:) The price is due to great quality of Choseras. But micro ceramics should be great quality too. Now I am waiting for them 🙂

Enjoy!

Lukas

[cbwx34]

One thing to consider, before buying additional stones, is to give your diamond stones some time to break in. As shown in pictures in this article… http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118:i-just-got-my-wicked-edge-and-sharpened-my-first-knife-its-not-as-sharp-as-i-thought-it-would-be-whats-going-wrong&catid=31:general&Itemid=46 there can be quite a difference.

I would use them for a bit, see how things are looking, give your stones a chance to break in, your strops a chance to “season” (they usually start working better after a couple of rounds of adding paste), then consider what additional you might want to get.

[Scott]

So I did some googling and found these very interesting forum threads. First is on the properties of abrasives described;

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/776447-properties-of-abrasives-described?highlight=properties+abrasives+described

And this one, the grand unified grit chart, showing the relative progression of about every stone there is;

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart?highlight=the+grand+unified+grit+chart

So the answer to my own question seems to be in a perfect world where money grows on trees, it would be the WEPS diamond progression through 1000 grit, then the Chosera stones at 2000/3000 and then 5000/10,000 and then the micro fine ceramic (fine side only since the coarse side seems to be about the same as the Chosera 10,000 waterstone I believe and then on to the strops up to .025 microns.

This would give you a mirror polished edge that would cut the space time continuum. But we are talking about somewhere around $1500 or $1800 off the top of my head guesstimate.

I did read somewhere that using a waterstone without water gives the same results as a diamond stone, that is more scratchy than polishing and might lead to premature wear and possibly some cracking of the waterstone, so not a good idea.

And finally, it is ultimately the person who is sharpening and their skills and knowledge that determine the outcome. Even the finest of stones in the wrong hands will not give the extremely precise results of a skilled and knowledgeable person with even inferior stones.

I still have not been able to determine with all these charts and comparisons how the super fine stones in this progression might compare to having the Chosera stones between the 1000 grit WEPS diamond stone and the Micro Fine WEPS ceramic.

If you have some experience I would love to hear from you.

Thanks

[Scott]

I would love to hear from someone with real world experience using the Chosera waterstones. Is the mess worth the outcome and does it in practice actually give better results than the use of the diamonds to super fine ceramic to micro fine ceramic?

[wickededge]

We’ve added the Superfine stones back, they are here: Superfine Ceramic Stones Pack. These stones are very different that what people are accustomed to when it comes to ceramic stones, but I absolutely love mine. They are really good at removing the scratches from the diamonds and are a great step after the 1000# diamonds. Whenever I want to clean up a blade and go for a perfect finish but don’t want to adjust my angles and prep waterstones, I use the Superfines.

-Clay

[Scott]

We’ve added the Superfine stones back, they are here: Superfine Ceramic Stones Pack. These stones are very different that what people are accustomed to when it comes to ceramic stones, but I absolutely love mine. They are really good at removing the scratches from the diamonds and are a great step after the 1000# diamonds. Whenever I want to clean up a blade and go for a perfect finish but don’t want to adjust my angles and prep waterstones, I use the Superfines.

Thanks for the update on those. I have ordered mine. I remember another post where you described some manufacturing difficulties with powdering or the edges cracking. Have those problems been fixed? I assume you have had a chance to use them. Is there a video showing the progression including these super fines from 1000 diamond to micro fine?

[wickededge]

We’ve added the Superfine stones back, they are here: Superfine Ceramic Stones Pack. These stones are very different that what people are accustomed to when it comes to ceramic stones, but I absolutely love mine. They are really good at removing the scratches from the diamonds and are a great step after the 1000# diamonds. Whenever I want to clean up a blade and go for a perfect finish but don’t want to adjust my angles and prep waterstones, I use the Superfines.

Thanks for the update on those. I have ordered mine. I remember another post where you described some manufacturing difficulties with powdering or the edges cracking. Have those problems been fixed? I assume you have had a chance to use them. Is there a video showing the progression including these super fines from 1000 diamond to micro fine?[/quote]

I haven’t done a video yet but the progression is fairly straightforward. The new formulation is a little harder and the stones I’ve tested worked great. I finished two big Victorinox Scimitars and a hunting knife with them yesterday and they came out great. There is a little bit of powder that comes off in the beginning but that stops fairly quickly. I like to use mine slightly moistened with soapy water. I keep a flat bowl on the far side of the sharpener with a little water in the bottom and a wet sponge that has a little dish soap on it. Periodically I lay my stones onto the sponge. If your bowl is the right height and has a low rim, it’s easy to do without taking the stones off of the rods. That said, it’s not necessary to use them wet, they work great dry too and I often use them that way.

-Clay

[Scott]

I like to use mine slightly moistened with soapy water. I keep a flat bowl on the far side of the sharpener with a little water in the bottom and a wet sponge that has a little dish soap on it. Periodically I lay my stones onto the sponge. If your bowl is the right height and has a low rim, it’s easy to do without taking the stones off of the rods. That said, it’s not necessary to use them wet, they work great dry too and I often use them that way.

So don’t take this wrong, I am not being sarcastic here, but with all that soaking and soaping and wetting, how is this different than the Chosera Waterstones.

I am trying to decide whether to add a 5000/10000 to my rotation perhaps after the super and before the micro or even to replace the micro and before the leathers. I had ruled it out after you mentioned that you used the Superfine when you didn’t want to prep and deal with the mess of using Chosera Stones.

Can you perhaps give a little more insight to the Chosera Stones verses the superfine ceramics please. Thanks.

Sorry to nag you, I know how busy you are, but this has been sort of nagging at me. I seem driven to have the best possible system despite the fact that I can now sharpen my knives enough to split atoms.

[Scott]

Also a quick follow up to my previous question. If the Super fine is still sloughing off some powder, doesn’t the water make the stone softer, which seems to me that it would have the effect of making it more powdery, especially when it dries?

[wickededge]

I like to use mine slightly moistened with soapy water. I keep a flat bowl on the far side of the sharpener with a little water in the bottom and a wet sponge that has a little dish soap on it. Periodically I lay my stones onto the sponge. If your bowl is the right height and has a low rim, it’s easy to do without taking the stones off of the rods. That said, it’s not necessary to use them wet, they work great dry too and I often use them that way.

So don’t take this wrong, I am not being sarcastic here, but with all that soaking and soaping and wetting, how is this different than the Chosera Waterstones.

I am trying to decide whether to add a 5000/10000 to my rotation perhaps after the super and before the micro or even to replace the micro and before the leathers. I had ruled it out after you mentioned that you used the Superfine when you didn’t want to prep and deal with the mess of using Chosera Stones.

Can you perhaps give a little more insight to the Chosera Stones verses the superfine ceramics please. Thanks.

Sorry to nag you, I know how busy you are, but this has been sort of nagging at me. I seem driven to have the best possible system despite the fact that I can now sharpen my knives enough to split atoms.[/quote]

It’s different in a couple of ways – wetting the Superfine stones is optional, just makes the edge a little more polished and keeps the stones a little cleaner, the wetting isn’t very involved and you don’t need to soak them, the Superfine stones are the same thickness as the rest of the kit so you don’t need to do much to manage the angles as you switch stones.

The Choseras are definitely awesome and create a beautiful finish, they just take a little more work to use. They are very lovely to use too, the feedback is wonderful.

-Clay

[cbwx34]

Also a quick follow up to my previous question. If the Super fine is still sloughing off some powder, doesn’t the water make the stone softer, which seems to me that it would have the effect of making it more powdery, especially when it dries?

I don’t think the powder coming off is actually stone wear… more like a ‘coating’ (for lack of a better word) that comes off, usually all on the first knife. After that, it’s a solid stone. Wetting them as Clay recommended doesn’t soften them. (Note that he’s just wetting, not soaking them).

[Scott]

Thanks guys for responding. I feel a bit obsessive, but in this forum I think I am in good company of people who understand that and may even be a bit sympathetic. I have ordered the super fine ceramic this morning and I’m looking forward to using it. I will suspend my sharpening until it arrives so I can use it on several of my knives to try it out. I guess once I get a chance to use it, I will know if I actually want to add the Chosera’s. But knowing me, I will probably add them eventually either way just to have and use them. I keep upgrading and resharpening my knives. By the time I am done, I will probably have whittled even my big belly knives down to a stiletto they are being so sharpened.

[wickededge]

Also a quick follow up to my previous question. If the Super fine is still sloughing off some powder, doesn’t the water make the stone softer, which seems to me that it would have the effect of making it more powdery, especially when it dries?

It seems to have the opposite effect; after using them slightly damp for a knife or two, there is no more sloughing of powder even when you use them dry. To answer my own curiosity about it, I just used them dry to touch up my current EDC (ZT 0560 Hinderer Collaboration) and they were great, no powder and quickly put a slightly cloudy mirror on the bevels. If I went on to strop the edge now it would polish up really quickly. These are brand new stones out of the current batch which I wanted to test against my tried and true set from a couple of years ago. My old, and still great set, are so old that the grit numbers aren’t even printed on the handles. Incidentally, I really enjoyed that I could refer back to my settings in the knife database and get exactly back to where I last left off with a newly updated machine. It only took a second to exactly match my bevels from a month or two ago.

-Clay

[cbwx34]

I have ordered the super fine ceramic this morning and I’m looking forward to using it. I will suspend my sharpening until it arrives so I can use it on several of my knives to try it out.

Don’t do that… keep breaking in those diamonds!! :cheer: (if they need it).

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