Angle Gauge & Stropping Questions

[Angel Tellez]

I have another, potentially dumb, question. What exactly is the Angle Gauge for and how can you use it? I’ve seen it attached to the arms, which I assume is to make sure your systems angle settings are correct, but is that its only purpose? I am interested in whether or not this can be used to check the factory angles on a knife, and if so, how? Can it only be used by attaching it to the WE arms? I have had a few knives come brand new with two very different angles and so I think this would be useful to find the angle on the ‘good side’ and match it. I think it would also be useful to check what angles my knives are after using the Lansky, which is known for having inaccurate angle settings. I was not planning on buying this, or the PP2, but if the Angle Gauge can do all these things that I’m interested in then I might just have to opt for the PP2. :ohmy:

I also have a question about stropping. No matter which system I buy I know I’m getting the 1.4/.6 micron Ceramic Stone, so my question is, what strop/micron would be the best next step? I see the PP2 comes with the Ceramic that I want plus a 1/.5 micron leather strops, but is there a better option instead of this particular strop? And what kind of strop would be best for polishing without convexing my edge? Right now I use Balsa with 1/.5 micron paste but only for my straight (non recurve) blades, I do this by hand though because I don’t have a WE system yet. 🙁 I was thinking about Balsa with .25/.125 spray but I’m not sure if this is adequate after using the 1.4/.6 Ceramic. But I’ve seen that Nano and Roo are really popular so I thought I would ask and see if Balsa is the best option for me or not. I’ve never tried Leather for two reasons; first reason is that I just started trying to learn how to strop and if I mess up on Leather I might ruin it and if I mess up on Balsa and ruin it I can just sand it down and start over, second and really the more important reason is that I don’t want to convex my edge and I read that over time stropping with leather WILL convex the edge. But I have no experience with Nano or Roo Leather, and even though I believe they would both probably convex my edge, I still wanted to ask and make sure that I’m not missing out on the best possible option because of an assumption.

Again, thank you ALL for the help!

[Kyle Mazur]

The angle cube is useful to make sure that both arms are at the same angle. because only one of the vice jaws move, if you have a thick knife in there, the angle can be off by a degree or 2. by using the angle cube you can make sure that both sides are the same angle and then have an even bevel on both sides. also the height of the knife can effect the angles. if you have a really tall knife even though you’re on the 15 degree mark it might not be a 15 degree angle.

as for your stone question… i thought there was a 1200/1600 grit option but i no longer see that on the website. i think that would be the next progression. currently when i sharpen i go up to 1000 and then i use 1500/2000 sandpaper then i strop with the 5/3.5 micron strops. that’s until i get some upgraded stuff

hope that helps!

kmm

[Angel Tellez]

Thank you for the Info. Now I want to get that too. 😆 I have heard about the 1200/1600 Ceramic stones but have never seen them on the site. I asked to make sure that the 1000 grit diamond to 1.4 micron ceramic was not too much of a jump and the person said that it should be fine. The new Pro Pack 2 comes with diamonds from 100 – 1000 grit, the ceramic 1.4/.6 micron, and a leather strop charged with 1/.5 micron diamond paste… so I was just wondering if the 1/.5 micron strop is really necessary if I buy the .25/.125 micron spray with a blank strop.

I really think that coming to this site is going to hurt my wallet. When I first came here I was thinking that I was going to buy the WE Field & Sport and maybe a strop… Now I want the WEPS with a bunch of extras or the WEPP2… :ohmy: I know either way I’m going to buy what I’m looking at, so the question is do I buy it all at once or buy just the system and a couple of stones and buy the rest after I get used to the system. I guess it really depends on how my funds are at the time. I just still feel kind of awkward because I’m planning to buy a sharpening system that is going to cost two or three times as much as my most expensive knife. But to me its still a good investment because with this one system I’ll be able to sharpen, preserve, and repair all my knives. And after nearly ruining a couple of my favorites with lesser systems I am really seeing the value of a sharpener that I can count on. Thanks again for the help!

[Kyle Mazur]

buy it all!!!

but seriously do that…
but really seriously this time. it really depends on what u want out of your knives. i have the pro pack 1 and for me going from 1000 to the 5 micron is too big of a jump. now with that being said i’m probably at the tail end of breaking my stones in. i’d also practice on several knives before going to your expensive favorites.

kmm

[Tom Whittington]

Definitely try wearing in the finer stones first, and then look at filling gaps and expanding your lineup. Clay really has me preaching the gospel when it comes to breaking in the stones, it makes a huge difference after only a few knives when you first start practicing.

I know I’ll once more elicit groans from some of the guys here bringing up the poor man’s method of using auto body sandpaper stuck to the 1000 grit stones… but it works! It’s certainly no waterstone, but my results thus far are very nice for such a cheap alternative. Moral of the story is that regardless of which method you pick bridging the gap between 1000 grit diamond and 5um paste is very beneficial, as Kyle mentioned above. I just happen to be on a tight budget!

For those curious, I used the following: 600->800->1000 diamond stone, 1000->1200->1500->2000->2500->3000 sandpaper strips, then the Pro Pack 5um and 3.5um pastes on the included leather (100 light strokes each). Not perfect by any stretch, but a good start on the cheap for now 🙂

[Angel Tellez]

Thanks for the advice guys! Im also on a tight budget, but Im already planning to buy the system + 800/1000 diamond stone & 1.4/.6 micron ceramic stone + the new upgrade, which all said and done is just under $100 less than the PP2. So Ill probably just get the Pro Pack 2. 👿

If I dont get the PP2 though, I might have to try using ‘the poor mans method’ and get my hands on some good sand paper. It sounds like a good, cheap, substitue for those of us on budgets. Is auto body sandpaper the only kind that you use? Do you have any brand recommendations? Thanks again for the advice!

Does anybody have any feedback on what to use for strops though? Whether sooner or later Ill end up using strops, but I dont really know anything about them. So any advice would be helpful. Balsa, Nano, Leather, or Roo Leather? I was thinking of just continuing to use Balsa with compound, but Im not sure of how it would do on recurves. Does anybody know if Balsa is good, and easy, for recurves? I just like Balsa because I dont want to convex my edges…

[Todd Peters]

For those curious, I used the following: 600->800->1000 diamond stone, 1000->1200->1500->2000->2500->3000 sandpaper strips, then the Pro Pack 5um and 3.5um pastes on the included leather (100 light strokes each). Not perfect by any stretch, but a good start on the cheap for now 🙂

Do you know where your sandpaper treatment falls within the grit/micron structure. I suspect it is in the micron structure. I have searched around the cyber world and have not found the answer.

Thanks

[cbwx34]

Something like this what you’re looking for?

http://www.fingerlakeswoodturners.com/downloads/Sand%20Paper%20Grit%20Comparison.pdf
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandpaper#Grit_size_table

(Type “grit micron sandpaper” in google, and you’ll get a bunch of examples.) 🙂

[Tom Whittington]

Is auto body sandpaper the only kind that you use? Do you have any brand recommendations? Thanks again for the advice!

I just call it that because it’s most commonly used for auto body work, but it’s sandpaper like anything else 🙂 I got several large sheets of each grit ranging from 50 cents per sheet up to just under a dollar from a refinishing supplier online. Some folks have good luck with their local Advanced Auto or Autozone having the variety packs, but my local stores only have up to 2000 grit. I really wanted that 3000 to test out!

Does anybody have any feedback on what to use for strops though? Whether sooner or later Ill end up using strops, but I dont really know anything about them. So any advice would be helpful. Balsa, Nano, Leather, or Roo Leather? I was thinking of just continuing to use Balsa with compound, but Im not sure of how it would do on recurves. Does anybody know if Balsa is good, and easy, for recurves? I just like Balsa because I dont want to convex my edges…

Well, you won’t convex your edge very much with a leather strop unless you’re trying to. There is definitely some rounding, but it’s subtle; like many things in sharpening it could be a plus or a minus depending on what you’re doing. I’ve used the basic leather strops from the Pro Pack I for a while now, and experimented with various techniques Clay recommends, such as setting the angle shallower to strop with. It’s just something to try for yourself to see what works best. I happen to like leaving the angle the same and taking very light strokes on the leather and that works very well for me.

Clay’s threads on strops have a lot of great info on roo leather in particular, and the nanocloth as well. It seems like the roo has much higher density and a burnishing quality that adds very nicely to the polishing effect. I’d like to get a set myself in the near future, and probably shoot for the next step of pastes (1um and 0.5um) to go with it.

I don’t have any balsa strops yet but from what a lot of folks here say they’re a great all around strop to have. I’m sure that with a little practice just about any strop will work fine on many recurved blades; the smaller width on Wicked Edge stones makes them pretty handy for that! The few I’ve done with regular stones and leather strops worked pretty well.

[Phil Pasteur]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart/page3

Keep in mind that most sandpaper is rated using the FEPA-P system

If it says 2000P Or P2000 on the label, it uses FEPA-P

Also notice that the grit size for P3000 paper is roughly equivalent to the WEPS 1000 grit diamonds.

The difference in results has been discussed, maybe do a search on sandpaper.

I second what ApexGS said about convexing the edge when using leather. It is very subtle when you use light strokes. In fact Clay has seen the effect to start becoming visible only at 800X and above. Also don’t confuse putting a microscopic convex shoulder as a sort of micro bevel with actual rounding of the edge. They are not the same. I can tell you that I almost always happier with my edges after a few passes with leather (I also have Kangaroo, Nano Cloth and balsa strops). If a toothier edge is required the coarser pastes can be used (14/10 or 5/3.5 micron). If you want to go to 0.125 micron sprays and finer, I would suggest nano cloth, though in the past I got pretty darn good results using the WEPS leather strops at this level. The nano cloth has less give than any of the leathers and has about zero abrasiveness on its own.

Phil

[Tom Whittington]

Keep in mind that most sandpaper is rated using the FEPA-P system

If it says 2000P Or P2000 on the label, it uses FEPA-P

Also notice that the grit size for P3000 paper is roughly equivalent to the WEPS 1000 grit diamonds.

This is really what surprised me. I did some reading on the rating systems and wasn’t sure what to expect out of the sandpaper, since it seems like going strictly by the numbers on the ratings the finer papers aren’t much better than the 1000 grit diamond stones. In practice though there is a world of difference! It really helps to bridge the gap between 1000# diamond and the strops.

While my moderately worn in 1000 stone puts a nice matte finish on that has become my go-to daily use or duty edge, the 3000 paper gets much finer and starts to show some reflectivity. Having a dense progression like I posted doesn’t take long to bring out a shine, though the real gleam is brought out with the strops. I should do another knife in this fashion and try to take macro images of each grit, if I can come up with a good way to take consistent pictures that show it decently…

After the strips wear in a bit they get very fine very quickly, and I suspect that even a fairly well used strip of sandpaper could stay useful for fine polishes much longer than you’d expect. I tend to use old worn sandpaper for a lot of fine polish work here in the shop, so I’ve taken to using sandpaper far beyond what most people consider tired and worn out 🙂

[Todd Peters]

Something like this what you’re looking for?

http://www.fingerlakeswoodturners.com/downloads/Sand%20Paper%20Grit%20Comparison.pdf
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandpaper#Grit_size_table

(Type “grit micron sandpaper” in google, and you’ll get a bunch of examples.) 🙂

This is the information that I was looking for, thank you.

As Phil stated I also noticed that the sand paper is roughly equivalent to the 1000 grit diamond stones. My experience with the sand paper is similar to some of the other members after the 1000 grit diamond the sand paper starts to bring out a nice polish. I enjoy trying all the different options just trying to make sense out of what I am experiencing

This is such a fun hobby!

[Phil Pasteur]

Hey guys, I was at work when I replied before
Here is a link to a similar discussion:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=9&id=5500&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=63#5566

Clay makes a very good point about the difference in not only the size of the abrasive , but the way it behaves as it breaks down…
drastically changing the results that you get.

I got my WEPs a good while back. I could not even find the 800/1000 grit paddles…. nor much else in the way of abrasives. I bought a bunch of wet/dry sandpaper (1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000) and a whole assortment of the 3M PSA films. I had nothing other than the abrasive papers and the diamonds up to 600 grit. I would stick the sandpaper to the 600 grit plates with painters tape, work up to the 3000 grit (P), then to the 9/3/1 micron 3M PSA film. I had some WEPS 5/3.5 micron leather strops. I would finish with those. I promise that I got some awesome edges with that progression.

The only problem that I had was that the papers and films would wear real fast. I could only do 2 to 3 knives with them before I thought they had lost effectiveness.

Here is another link to some discussion of abrasive papers:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=2&id=3751&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=63#3798

And some more:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=3245&Itemid=63#3245

More interesting reading:
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=79&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=63#2378

BTW, the search function is great stuff… but I am happy to do the leg work when I have time!

Phil

[Phil Pasteur]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.ph…ied-Grit-Chart/page3

One thing about the above..
Not sure if you folks have had a chance to look at the final edtion on page three of the above thread…
But, it has all of the grit sizes for the WEPS stones as well as the Chosera stones and Shaptons.. plus the sandpaper grits and EP stones. I downloaded it and keep a copy on my desktop on my main PC. It comes in real handy quite often.

Of course, the size of the grit is just one component of what determines your results when using any abrasive for sharpening… and undoubtedly not the most important component. You can easily see this just by checking out reviews for the different stones that are in the same grit size range.

Phil

[Angel Tellez]

Alot of very good advice. Thank you guys for all the info and for digging up so many links. Its amazing what can be done with some sandpaper. Ill have to look around town and see whats available. I dont want to go too fine, because I do like my edge a bit toothy, but I also like it clean and reflective. The most Ive done on an edge was on my Griptilian 550HG, I reprofiled the edge to 20* per side on my Lansky (which some people say is closer to 17*) started at 70 grit diamonds and ended with 2000 grit ceramic (Super Sapphire), then I went to the UF rods on my Sharpmaker, and ended stropping on Balsa with 1/.5 micron pastes, which got my edge to a nice polish (not a mirror polish) but kept the edge a nice and toothy-ish. That was my first hair whittling edge. I dont have good consistency with the Lansky though, thats another reason I want to upgrade.

Its good to know the leather wont completely convex my edge, Id like to try out a good leather strop now, maybe see what that Roo is all about. 🙂

Thanks again you guys, tons of great info since the last time I was online. Those micron charts are nice to have, but I know they arnt the only variable on the results of any knife. But its still good to have a chart like that to refer to.

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