Favorite progression
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- This topic has 13 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 08/21/2012 at 7:43 am by
Alex Doherty.
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08/18/2012 at 11:57 pm #4735
Hey guys I’m new here I just got my WE a couple of days ago and so far I’ve had good results. I got the pro pack 1 and the 1200/1600 ceramics. My question is what is your favorite progression or what progression leads to your favorite edge? So far I like the 1000 grit edge the best. I’m not asking for scientific just what do you like and why. Thanks and I can’t wait to hear what you guys have to say.
08/19/2012 at 7:34 am #4744Hi there!
When you say you like the 1000 grit finish best, what
Sort of knife, and what application?
For me, my preferred edge varies considerably
From knife to knife and depends a lot on the job I’m
Doing with the knife08/19/2012 at 8:38 am #4747Welcome to the forums, Alex! I think you made an excellent choice.
As to your question, this has been discussed in many topics. If you use the search function (not the box in the top right, but the tab Search), you can search for them. But generally spoken the question is what is the best edge for the particular job. For some heavier tasks where you do a lot of slicing (like cutting up boxes) you don’t want a very refined edge and some toothiness helps. For other tasks where you do mostly push cutting (shaving being an extreme example), you want a very refined edge.
Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge
08/19/2012 at 12:32 pm #4750Sorry if this has been covered and thanks for the help with the search. I’m new to this so I’m still not sure how all of this works but to answer your questions most of my knives are used for edc or in the kitchen. In both cases my personal preference is for a little tooth. On the WE again I’m new but so far the 1000 grit stone followed by the balsa strops with the 5 micron paste has been my favorite all round edge it’s refined enough for some push cutting but still has some bite for slicing. I haven’t had a chance to try the waterstones or the HA sprays yet so I don’t know about them but for what I have right now that is my favorite. I was just curious about what you guys like. Thanks again and please bear with me while I’m learning.
08/20/2012 at 6:37 am #4765No reason to be sorry, you never know until you ask (and/or use the search function)
I know this has already been said here in this thread, but the answer is, it depends. For an EDC I do pretty much what you do, except I usually go with the 800/1000 Chosera stones after the diamonds. I then use 6 and 3 micron diamond paste on leather followed by 1 and 0.5 micron mono diamond spray on leather. The Chosera stones smooth things out a bit and really start to get to that mirror edge that lots of folks want.
When my OCD kicks in and I am just trying to see if I can pass the hanging hair test and make the edge as bright and shiny as I know how, I add to the above with the 2000 and 3000 chosera stones then the 5000 and 10K choseras. Recently I got some 10K 12K Super Stones and some 15K Shaptons. I have added those in on a ZDP 189 Endura (really makes the edge pretty)> This I strop as before, but add 0.25 micron and 0.125 CBN on balsa and 0.125 CBN ansd 0.1 micron diamond on Kangaroo, and finally 0.050 and 0.025 micron diamond on Nano Cloth.
What does that get me… satisfaction and a real pretty edge. It will tree top arm hair and (sometimes) pass the hanging hair test, usually push cut limply held toilet paper. Seeing that I don’t shave with my knives, the edge is pretty impractical especially for the time it takes to do it. Open a box or two, cut some rope, and that “perfect” edge no longer does most of that stuff.
🙂So… my favorite progression is dependent on what the latest stuff I got to play with and how anal retentive I decide to be with a given blade.
To sharpen for what you want to do with your blades, it sounds to me like you have a pretty good progression. As you have money and time, you may want to play with additional abrasives to see if you get improvements for your specific applications. The bottom line is, if you are happy with the edges that you are getting, then your progression is just fine.
BTW, I think the guys were just trying to let you know that there have been some discussions on this before so that you could see what others have said on the subject in the past… not to blow you off!!
Here are some good threads:
This one sort of pulls together a buch of other threads on the stock stone progressionhttp://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=1824&Itemid=63
Our (one of) local stone Guro Tom Blodgett posted this on his blog. The proof is still in how you like the way your knives cut, but this shows what the stones do on a microscopic level:
Clay has also done some great photomicrographs of different progressions. This is more on stropping, but fascinating just the same:
http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&Itemid=63#2431Phil
08/20/2012 at 10:04 am #4768Wow! That’s a lot of interesting stuff there and thanks for taking the time to put in the links. I can understand what you mean by OCD. So far tree topping hair is something I can do but hanging hair or toilet paper seems impossible. I would love to be able to pass the hanging hair test but I probably wouldn’t want to use the knife. Do you notice a big difference in the HA or CBN sprays and the WE pastes? Because I was thinking of trying the kangaroo strops next but I was wondering what compound to get.
08/20/2012 at 10:31 am #4769As a newcomer myself I’ve been pretty impressed and pleased with the sort of duty edge I’ve gotten with the Pro pack, just using the 5 micron diamond paste. For seeing how shiny I can get edges I spend extra time in each step to help clean up scratches, and a LOT more time on the 5 and 3.5 micron strops. The only real issue there is there’s a fair jump in fineness from 1000 grit to 5 micron from what I understand, so I’m looking forward to getting some ceramics and another set or two of strops in the future to bridge that gap while expanding the final finish.
It’s a lot of fun experimenting though, I’m going to be grabbing box lots of old knives at local auctions for a while to see what sorts of angles and finishes work best in different situations. I think an expanded general guideline like the manual has for various knife types might be pretty useful, just as a starting point to build on.
08/20/2012 at 10:42 am #4771I think that the abrasives from either HA or Ken Schwartz just have more abrasives in them per unit volume than the pastes from WE. I personally can’t see much difference in CBN versus Diamonds in the sprays. I also have not been able to really tell any difference between the mono and poly crystaline diamond sprays…
With Clay’s new microscope we might be able to quantify this, but this is not something that I can do. Besides when getting to these levels of sub-micron abrasives, I think we are dealing with the laws of diminishing returns anyway.
If you check closely that link on the theory of how the strops work, you will see pictures with the WEPS diamond pastes and then adding some HA diamonds in the same grit rating… you judge.
http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&limit=6&limitstart=30&Itemid=63
Half way down the page. Check the pictures.
Clay says“There are clearly a LOT more diamonds than when I was using the strops with just the paste. Additionally, most of the ‘stiction’ was gone from the strops after spraying with the HA spray. I decided to do another 100 passes and started getting back to good ‘stiction'”
Read the entire thread. Eventually Clay gets to the Kangaroo and Nano cloth strops. Very impressive !!
Clay says “Okay, I just got my mind blown and now I’ll share; Ken sent me some kangaroo leather for strops along with some nano-cloth. Here is a nice progression going from 1um Diamond on Cow Leather (Top) to .25 Diamond on Kangaroo Leather (Top) to .125 CBN on Nano-Cloth”
Again check the pictures on pages 16 and 17 of that thread…
Ken Schwartz told me to use the Kangaroo and or NANO cloth strops with the finest abrasives that I could get (or wanted to use) to realize the advantages to either. Leather or balsa both have a small amount of abrasivenes inherent in each. With courser grits this is not as important. With the finest grits, you don’t want your spray to be overwhelmed by the substrate being intrinsically more course.
Maybe get some leather or balsa strops for intermediate abrasives, say between 0.5 and 3 microns, then think about ‘Roo or Nano cloth with some of the finer sub-micron abrasives. Maybe 0.25 micron and below…
Much of the joy of the WEPS is derived from being able to try different things with a high level of control at the edge and to see what works for you.
BTW, I would sugest that you get some kind of magnification to be able to look at your edges. A 10X loupe is a good start, but marginal. You can find them on Ebay from a few dollars to well over $100. You can also get very cheaply one of these little lighted 60X pocket microscopes. For instance:
Works great, but not sure it is really 60X.
I also have one of these:
A bit more fiddly and less depth of field, but more real magnification.
It really helps to be able to see what is going on when you sharpen!
Phil
08/20/2012 at 11:24 am #4772Thanks guys for all the help. I’ve got the 1200/1600 stones and the 5/3 micron pastes on balsa. I got balsa instead of leather because I thought I might not round the edge as much but I think I’m going to try the kangaroo with 1 and .5 sprays next and see how that goes. I’m definitely going to have to get a loupe or something to see the edge better too. The list keeps growing. Lol Thanks again. I’ve got a lot of reading to do.
08/20/2012 at 12:21 pm #4774Welcome to the mystical rabbit hole..
I see you starting to disappear down it right now..🙂
Seriosuly, I would not worry much about the tiny bit of convcexing that the leather causes. At 800X it may seems significant, but it really is not. If it does worry you, try the Nano Cloth with the 1.0 and 0.5 micron sprays. It “gives” even less then the ‘Roo and adds virtually nothing of its own to the process. Besides, it is cheaper…
Just a thought.
BTW, I added some to my last post. You may not have seen it because I was editing when you last posted.Phil
08/20/2012 at 4:33 pm #4777I think I’ve jumped in head first. I did some reading then I pulled out my benchmade 940 in 154cm and went through the 1600 ceramic stones then I dropped 1 degree and went through the 5 and 3.5 pastes on balsa. I spent a little more time on each step and whoa baby it passed the hht!! Now I’m excited so I got out my spyderco in cpm m4 set it up at b on the top notch at 16 degrees with the angle cube and went to work. I did the same progression on each step I did scrubbing then sweeping strokes then dropped 1 degree and when through the pastes. Oh my does m4 get stupid sharp!!! It passed the hht no problem but it still won’t push cut toilet paper. It does slice paper towel though. Anyway now my wife thinks I’m crazy but she was impressed.
08/20/2012 at 11:54 pm #4783Congrats on your success!
Nothing nicer than a sharp blade, one that you sharpened youself, in your pocket..
Well possibly nothing other than using the blade..
🙂Phil
08/21/2012 at 6:33 am #4787I’m still playing around with my Hogue EX01 tanto, but I just realized I’ve been horribly spoiled by the Wicked Edge already. I got a CRKT M16 14SF in for a customer and friend of mine and I’m really unimpressed by the factory edge! The grind is nice though, maybe I’ll end up upgrading it for him 🙂
08/21/2012 at 7:43 am #4788I’ve always had good luck hand sharpening but I’ve gotten spoiled too by the speed and ease that I can try new things and get repeatable results. That hasn’t always been the case freehand. It takes a lot of the worry out of the process because if you try something and you don’t like it or it doesn’t work out like you thought it is easy to go back to what you know works or try something else. I would upgrade… with his permission of course. 🙂
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