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Edge chipping on a cheap knife

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  • #36615
    BarmanBean
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 19

    Hey folks,

    I’ve sharpened a few knives now with pretty good results–cheapo kitchen aide steak knife, couple ikea scrap knives, kitchen aide santoku from the back of the drawer, a Wusthof pairing knife (gettin’ serious!), and my roommate’s JA Henkel chef knife that had no edge whatsoever and turned out AWESOME.

    All that to say that my stones are still breaking in, and the only think I’ve used the 100 grit stones on have been the cruddy knives.  Any other reprofiling has starting with the 200 grit stone.

    Tonight I tackled another kitchen aide steak knife.  I really don’t care about these knives, so no big deal regarding what happens to em, although it’s loads of fun to take a really cruddy knife and sharpen the living heck out of it.

    It had now real discernible edge or bevel to speak of, angle was all over the place so I just picked around 18* and what I thought would be the right spot in the vise based on some other knives and started to reprofile with the 100 grit stone.  I used a scrubbing method since I expected to remove quite a bit of metal on both sides of the knife.

    In pretty short order I noticed the edge of the blade was chipped like crazy.  It had some chips before, but it’s obvious that the 100 grit stones were crazy aggressive with this specific knife / steel.  My question is whether this is a general risk with a scrubbing method (I know that edge leading strokes are safest, right?) or is this likely more a product of 1) crappy steel, and 2) new-ish 100 grit stones?

    Thanks!

    #36616
    Amoo
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 18

    From everything I have learned so far man I would say yes to all.  The only #3 I would add would be pressure.  I have decided to re-profile everything I have sharpened so far and when I am using the 100-400 grit stones I use very light pressure, even scrubbing motions, then as I progress higher, I just let the stone do all the work by itself.

    Personally if I noticed something started chipping I would stop scrubbing immediately, you can probably still scrub up, but not down also.  It may take a little more time, but I would think that would fix your issue.

    #36618
    Alan
    Participant
    • Topics: 15
    • Replies: 206

    My first thought is that the angle you used was right on the blades apex with a not so broken in 100 stone.  Scrubbing the edge reduces chips, as you are most always in contact with the blade.  The reason for edge leading strokes is to develop less of a wire edge, and to establish scratches that are slanted towards the heal of the blade, so when the blade is drawn towards you as the cut is made, the scratches dig into the food being cut, providing a more efficient cutting edge.

     

    Alan

    #36619
    BarmanBean
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 19

    yeah, everything seems to indicate not to apex / develop a burr using the 100 grit stones.  I didn’t even mean to really, I think the metal just wore down extremely fast.  I made a few scrubbing passes on each side and the demolition evidence was in full effect.

    This is why I’m continuing to use cruddy knives for the most part 🙂

    My roommate with the Henckel–caught him cooking some chicken tonight and asked him how the knife was.  He said something along the lines of “I thought I had sharp knives before, but this is just crazy”  🙂  It’s nice putting an edge on a tired knife!

    #36620
    Mark76
    Participant
    • Topics: 179
    • Replies: 2760

    I think there area few things you can do, although many cheap steel is prone to chipping. First increase your angle to 20 degrees or so. Then make sure the stones are broken in. And finally try to use edge-leading strokes only. It wont’t guarantee perfect results, but it may help and will probably improve your results. Some steel is just too prone to chipping.

    Success!

    Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

    #36652
    Gregg776
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
    • Replies: 59

    It could be that the knife has invisible stress cracks form a life of being abused and the diamond stone is merely breaking off chunks that would come off in time with any means of sharpening or thinning.  There have been several discussions in the past on this forum about flattening the edge completely to get to new solid metal.  Then re-sharpen as close to even on both sides as possible.

    Similar chipping happens with a blade that has been overheated on a mechanical grinding wheel without coolant and somebody polishes out the heat discoloration to cover their mistake.  Another cause is using the knife as a pry-bar near the edge (my wife would do that), or improper use of a steel.

    Personally I would not go less than 18 degrees on a cheap knife then add a 20 to 22 degree micro bevel.

    On the other hand the knife may be poorly heat treated and never be worth the effort except for the learning aspect.  Inexpensive knifes are batch heat treated and this one may not have been in the right place to get a proper heat treatment.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #36655
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    I convinced myself to never touch an apex with stones under 400 grit as they are predisposed to breaking chips from the edge.  Especially when using edge-trailing strokes.

    I’ll reach a little further here to say that in my opinion, straight-edged (not serrated) steak knives are probably hardened to a higher level than other knives by the same manufacturer.  I have a set of Wuesthoff steak knives that stands up very well to repeated use against plates.  If examined with my microscope, I’ll see evidence of very small chips broken from the edge, and very light denting, which is what I’d expect more of.

    I would bet first that the problem in our opening post lies in the use of new, very low grit stones.  But perhaps the Kitchen-Aide steak knife is also exceptionally hard?

    #36677
    BarmanBean
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
    • Replies: 19

    I really think it’s the knife.  The other knife in the pair sharpened fine, many others are sharpening fine.  Although I have to admit I’m trying to use the 200 grit wherever possible as the starting grit.

     

    tcmeyer, you say you never apex with stones under 400 grit.  Well how the HECK are you developing an edge then?  You mean that you are continuing to try and reprofile knives with 600 grit stones and higher?  If I’m understanding correctly, doesn’t that correlate to spending ungodly amounts of time in reprofiling?  I’m honestly confused, because I thought the point was to apex at the beginning grit and then continue to refine / polish the edge as you go through the stones…?

    #36678
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    tcmeyer, you say you never apex with stones under 400 grit. Well how the HECK are you developing an edge then? You mean that you are continuing to try and reprofile knives with 600 grit stones and higher? If I’m understanding correctly, doesn’t that correlate to spending ungodly amounts of time in reprofiling? I’m honestly confused, because I thought the point was to apex at the beginning grit and then continue to refine / polish the edge as you go through the stones…?

    Please understand that I am stating what I have found to be best practice for me; a position I guess you ought to assume for anybody’s personal experience.  I will use my 100/200 grit stones to reprofile, but I carefully watch how closelyI am approaching what I expect to be the final apex.  This works best for me when I flatten the edge to eliminate any deep chips and dents.  I can then judge pretty accurately where the final apex will fall and then approach it carefully.

    No, I don’t limit myself to the 600’s, but because of the heavy use my 400’s see, they are very well “broken in” and there is little concern about further damage to the apex.  Of course, this practice means that I  heavily use my 400-grit stones and have to replace them more frequently because of it.   The deeper the damage is, the longer you’ll have to work at removing it with your least destructive stone.  For me, that’s the 400, and yes, sometimes I spend a lot of effort with my 400’s to achieve the first stages of a refined edge.

    The root of this approach is that I think you’ll find that removing the last bit of scratches from one grit before proceeding to the next and refining the edge are two different animals.  If your intent is to leave a “toothy edge,” this is pretty much irrelevant, but achieving a hair-popping HHT4 edge will require much more focus on removing flaws at the apex left by a previous grit.

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