Suggested/Factory Angle not Jiving w/Sharpie?

Legacy Forum Archive basic-techniques-and-sharpening-strategies
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So after a lot of dumb questions and alot of “OCDing” I dove in and started practicing. The edges are coming out pretty good for a Noob w/new stones but one thing is not jiving…

I’ve been using the Sharpie Method to set the angle but the angles I see people recommending or the factory angles are not even close to the ones i’m getting w/the Sharpie?

For example, I did a test on my Hinderer XM-18 which is at 22 degrees factory but my angle cube says like 26 degrees to get the Sharpie removed from the edge? Or this kitchen knife (see pic) is at 27 degrees to get to the edge but i’m seeing most kitchen knives at waaaay lower angles like 15.

Do you see something drastically wrong with my set-up or am I doing something wrong w/the cube.. something doesn’t make sense.

Thanks for any direction.

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Sorry, pics were too big.

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Are you zeroing the cube to surface the WEPS is mounted on?

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Yes.

Place on base, zero, place on top of stone (see pic), lay against edge, test swipe till “edge of edge” is removed.

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I’ve seen knives too with factory bevels which didn’t seem right. My attitude is that the original bevel angle is irrelevant. Profile the blade to whatever angle you think is right and forget about what it used to be.

If the manufacturer says that their knives should be at 22 degrees, I’d go with whatever your standard angle is (mine is 20 degrees)so you don’t have to keep a record of the knife with the oddball angle. Of course, if a customer says they want the 22 degrees, give 'em what they want. The next time you’re asked to sharpen it, hope that one of you remembers the unusual angle.

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Thought maybe the problem was in arm set-up. I had “flipped” the arms (as per a suggestion on the forum) to the other side so that the thumbscrews contact the flat side of the bar.

However, I just installed them the normal way, adjusted via the angle cube, then did a test swipe. At 20 degrees on that kitchen knife the marker is no where removed from the edge.

I also did another test on the Hinderer (see pic) and at 22 degrees I am literally scratching the very bottom of the edge? I understand not focusing too much on the factory angle but still seems weird that all the knives I’ve done are at a pretty high angle to reach the edge. Plus the w/Hinderer I know the exact factory angle and I am way off.

Still feel like i’m doing something dumb, something must be wrong.

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Knife positioning and sharpie. http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91:finding-the-sweet-spot-positioning-your-knife-from-front-to-back&catid=38&Itemid=258

Here’s a thread involving the angle cube and how its positioning on the stone etc will affect its reading. You will also notice that
If the ball joint is twisted to one side or the other, readings will be affected.

http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&view=topic&catid=6&id=1244&limitstart=20&Itemid=271#10557

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Just to be clear… When you set your arms at 22 degrees, is the angle cube confirming that angle?

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Thank you so much for the links. I’ve read them and I think my knife position is correct and the other post seems to be dealing with minor angle changes/discrepancies. Mine seem many degrees off.

My Angle Finder indeed matches my arms. When the arm is 22 degrees on the bar, the cube reads 22 degrees. That’s where i’m confused… if I set it at 22 degrees, factory angle on the Hinderer, it would be removing the marker/sharpie literally from the bottom of the edge?

Should I just “trailblaze” and not worry about it, literally re-profiling the edge to the MY angle? I feel like if i’m set at 22 degrees, the factory angle is supposed to be 22 degrees, I should be removing the marker perfectly at the top of the edge, ready to create a burr… no?

Again, if I just used the Sharpie Method on the Hinderer, I am at like 26 degree to remove the marker from the edge and start my burr?

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The sharpie method and the angle cube are more accurate than the bar settings. The bar settings were based upon a knife of chosen
Blade length and width. Somewhere, it is written, what the measurements are.

The angle reading, on the bar on the side of the vise that is fixed/doesn’t move, will likely be in more agreement with the angle cube than the moveable side.

May want to fiddle around with a cheap knife(s), rather than your Hinderer. There is some learning curve to the WEPS, and questions will continue to pop up as you use it. Some will be answered best by you seeing first hand as you get used to using the WEPS.

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Don’t think of it at “trailblazing.” Think of it as correcting an improperly beveled knife. The Sharpie is simply to tell you when you’ve reached the apex.

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I like to think of it more as showing where contact between stone and blade are occurring. Just me, just my visualization.
2¢

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In this case, your two cents worth is spot on, and a more accurate definition than mine. I was specifically referring to JDS’s search for the right angle, which is slowly leading him to the apex.

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So are you saying if I take a knife that has a factory 22 degree angle, set my stones/arms at 22 degrees to match with an angle finder, I should NOT expect to be removing the sharpie at the edge of the edge… or “apex”?

Or, like “TC” says, even though the Hinderer is said to have a factory 22 degree angle, could that not actually be the angle it’s at brand new and I would be actually correcting it… even on a high end knife?

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[quote quote=“JDS” post=15195]So are you saying if I take a knife that has a factory 22 degree angle, set my stones/arms at 22 degrees to match with an angle finder, I should NOT expect to be removing the sharpie at the edge of the edge… or “apex”?

[color color=#0088ff]the sharpie and angle finder will show what the "factory angle " is. Without a goniometer, there is no other easy way to determine what angle the blade left the factory with that I am aware of.[/color]

Or, like “TC” says, even though the Hinderer is said to have a factory 22 degree angle, could that not actually be the angle it’s at brand new and I would be actually correcting it… even on a high end knife?[/quote]

[color color=#0044ff]High end knives are still sharpened, free hand on a belt, and like TC says you would be correcting it. Browse around the forum and practice on inexpensive knives.[/color]

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JDS,

Are you checking both sides of the knife and seeing this (or in other words, is your knife vertical in the clamp)? I ask this because something looks really off in your setup. It’s hard to tell from your pictures, but, especially in the first picture you posted… it looks like there’s a huge gap between the two sides, and there shouldn’t be. The space between the clamps basically should be about the same width as the knife, and there shouldn’t be such a big gap and overhang that I’m seeing… unless I’m not looking at it right.

To answer your other question, what most makers say there knife is sharpened at and what they actually are is often different, although I don’t know if that’s true with a “Hinderer”. At this point though, I’m more interested in why the clamp setup looks like it does.

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Curtis
I’d noticed the clamp looking out of whack myself and thought it was just a mock up to show angle gauge use. If that is in actuality the way the knife is clamped, something is definitely off there.

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Maybe I’m seeing it wrong, but the knife doesn’t even look like its in the clamp and the clamp doesn’t look square to the base, is that an optical illusion?
Ahhh..I see, its clamped (duh). Sorry…

Todd in Chicago

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Good eye on the clamp. As I repositioned the arms I did indeed notice the clamp was way too far out on the bottom and corrected it but still way off (I think) in my angles. I think it looks more out of whack from that photo-angle than it really is but i’ll do some checks.

So not to beat a dead horse but maybe I could just ask about your set-up procedure…

Say you want to sharpen a knife with a 22 degree factory angle and keep that factory angle. You position it in the WE, set angle of arms/stones to 22. Say you did a “sharpie test” as well but marker is removed from bottom of edge. You’re saying you just go ahead with sharpening anyway, “forcing/re-profiling” the edge to YOUR specifications (or 22 degree angle)? So essentially if you did another sharpie test at the end of your session the marker would now be removed from the edge and I guess the knife did not have a true 22 degree angle to start with?

And just FYI, i’m not really practicing on the Hinderer, just doing some light test swipes with a high grit because it’s the one knife where I know the correct factory angle. I have a box of practice knives i’m using.

I’ve done about ten knives and believe it or not they’ve come out pretty good just using the sharpie to match the angle. But the discrepancy between what i’m seeing most edges sharpened at and what MY readings are is bugging me.

Again, it seems like if I have a knife at “X” factory angle and I set my arms to match “X” angle I should be removing marker pretty close to the apex, not the bottom. Is that NOT common?

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

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Sorry guys, but I have a real problem picking up on what you’re seeing in the clamp set-up in the last photo. I thought I could see that the opening between the two sides was wider at the bottom than the top, so I blew the photo up in a “Photoshop” app, boosted the brightness and the two sides look pretty close to parallel, which would be correct.

Of course the user has to watch carefully to make sure the knife is clamped vertically and is not leaning to one side or the other. I looked at a bunch of photos of Hinderer XM-18 knives and it looks as if all have at least a small amount of flat where they’d be clamped. Ah, but I’m assuming here… My practice is to clamp ALL folding knives with the bolster pushed up against the clamp. I’ll explain that elsewhere.

As the thickness of the blade increases, (say, a machete as opposed to a filet knife) the centerline of the knife (the line that the apex should fall on) moves by one-half of the thickness change. The apex moves away from the fixed side and towards the free side. This means that the angle will increase on the fixed side and decrease on the opposite side. The Hinderer has a thickness of about 0.180", so the theoretical center of the blade would move 0.090". But compared to what? I measured a setup with my Buck 110 folding knife.

At the 22 degree detents, I measured 2.66" horizontally between the center of the ball joints and the center of the blade ( 0.12" thick")

I measured 4.85" vertically between the centerline of the ball joints and the apex of the blade over the center of the vise. This is the adjacent side of my triangle.

I measured a couple of diamond blocks and found them to be about 1.187" thick, resulting in an offset of 0.594". This means the base (opposite side) of my triangle is 2.067".

My Navy training trig says the tangent of my triangle is 2.067 / 4.85 = .426. The included angle (arctangent=0.426) is actually 22.54 degrees. My angle cube says 22.6 degrees. As near as I can see, both sides are identical.

Now if we switch to a Hinderer XM-18, which has a thickness of 0.185" the vertical centerline of the knife will move 0.033" to the right. This means that my triangles are no longer identical. Theoretically, the angle on the left becomes 22.9 degrees and the angle on the right becomes 22.2 degrees.

Not enough of a difference to worry about, but if you go to something thicker, the angle change does become a factor. I don’t know if it would be noticeable on the finished knife.

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