Following this thread…in absolute amazement, as I frequently find myself doing. ![]()
Just a thought…
Can it be that with the lateral strokes, the edge of the stone is tilted ever so slightly and is “digging in” ?
It’s interesting that very little can be found on this, outside of woodworking. I wonder if, for example, razor blade manufacturers ever did a study.
i did find one interesting quote in a wood working forum about side (lateral) sharpening…
I don't like side sharpening for the final finish scratches at an edge. The edge failures are different and not in a good way (they are wider and make bigger marks in my experience - only a big deal for smoothing, but that's probably all half the people who use hand planes use them for, anyway).Not to mention even common trade discussion that I’ve read says the last set of scratches laid on when sharpening should go in the direction of cut. Right off the top of my head, the last place I read that was Odate’s book, but I know I’ve seen it elsewhere.
…that he saw “wider and make bigger marks” in the failure, seems to correspond to what you’re seeing under the scope… if I’m understanding it correctly.
[quote quote=31478]
I’m finding that stones are making it to the edge, but taking out significant gouges as they go. I’ve repeated it a number of times today with the same results. Here’s a look:
The scale at the bottom is wrong, this was shot at 800x, not 2000x. [/quote]
It almost looks like a fracture line extends past the breakout spot in both directions. Very weird…Maybe lateral strokes arent suited for an optimal refined edged. I have a few more ideas to try but may have to wait until I get a new scope. Clay thanks for investigating!
Interesting side not is that a few posts further down on that woodworking forum this was mentioned:
Hi David
I’m going to make a few points, but please don’t ask me for the references as I just cannot find them at present (one was a Japanese study on sharpening, and I vaguely recall “Hitachi” … anyone help out?).
In a nutshell, side sharpening was found to produce a stronger edge than front-and-back sharpening. This conclusion is also reinforced by research which look at magnified images of blade edges (Steve Elliott?) - results demonstrate the the chipping eminates from the fine scratches that lead to the edge of the bevel. And, of course, there are no such scratches with side sharpening.
Regards from Perth
Derek (dedicated side sharpener)
To be continued…? ![]()
I redid the blade again. Here it is with a little micro-bevel and sharpening not quite perpendicular to the edge:
The edge looks pretty clean to me and it was super sharp. Here it is after doing parallel strokes, immediately after:
Here are some shots at 200x as well to get a little more context:
This last one is most interesting to me because you can see that there is some thickening happening to the edge.
I forgot to mention that the edge-parallel strokes were done with 1.5µ and 1.0µ lapping film. Pretty gentle stuff. I do wonder if the slight give of the lapping film allows it to roll over the edge and actually push into the very edge from the “top”.
I decided to image the edge when stroked parallel to the edge with a coarser grit. I chose 400# and then I took three images with different focal lengths to try and get a composite with more depth of field. I stacked the images in Photoshop to create the composite:
[attachment file=“2000x-400#-Stacked.jpg”]
Here is one of the three images on its own:
[attachment file=“2000x-400#-2.jpg”]
…
That is very interesting Clay. You think the thickening is from some sort of micro-roll over? I could totally “see” that happening since the film is traveling along the entire length instead of rapidly being pulled over and off the edge in more traditional method.
What plattens and films were you using? I actually had a dream last night where I was measuring micron thickness of films. The AlO2 films I have are very thin and not PSA backed, but the sticky tape does add a cushioning layer as well… Also in the dream I used newspaper on a glass platen as a final strop because Id heard its equivalent to .01 microns.
I have also had interesting result going edge leading on the final few light passes without cutting into the films. ![]()
For the most part, I set the edges up using the diamond plates through 1000# and then the Micro-Fine ceramics, then all the lapping films on glass. This last set with the lapping films was finished at 1 micron.
I couldn’t resist checking out 800#:
[attachment file=“2000x-800#-1.jpg”]
and the Micro-Fine Fine stone:
I didn’t get the best images here, so I’ll probably rework the blade with the Micro-Fines for a while and then re-shoot it.
I think you’ve found the weakness of this method at such a tiny scale. Ofcourse its just a theory, but the slight give in the films allows rollover when traveling laterally. In my mind I could see the film not forming a burr but didnt account for its softness.
When I too get a scope you can be sure Ill be playing around more with this realm and lateral strokes do have uses, but just maybe not at the final finishing step(s)…great stuff!
It makes sense to me if I think of the scratches on the edge as the grain of veneer. You can bend it one way while it will immediately break if bended the other way. (Which is with and which is against the grain?)
Frans
So TC, and I guess all on this thread, if one (aka me) is really interested in simply examining how well I’m working across the bevel what would you recommend in the sub $100 range as far as a scope? Of course I’m amazed at the level one can attain with the Dino’s but if good depth of field and ease of use is the primary concern does a unit like the Celestron (or something even less expensive) all one really needs?
NickedEdge, As you read in the earlier above post my “go to” “Fav” microscope is still the first cheapest one I purchased. I recommend you start cheap. This one says it works on OS. I don’t know which versions.
Yes thanks Marc, and btw “George” works just fine in response!
Good stuff here and I’m replying to simply resurrect this thread to see if anyone has any updates.
Edge-leading, trailing, and -parallel strokes.. hmmmm good stuff.
my $20 scope and my $50 is Celeste on vs 500-100 Dyno lite . hmmmm…. Makes me ponder the next scope… for science sake… I’d love to have a wireless scope with good DOF and magnification and ease of focus (Good mechanism) that I could view on an iPad rather then break out the laptop.. damn are we getting spoiled these days with tech and gadgets…
all updated comments and convo are welcome..
No disrespect meant…what do you want your microscope to do? For me it’s a magnifying visual aid to help me to sharpen my knives with my W.E. My scope let’s me see where my scratch patterns are being laid down so I can better assess my sharpening efficiency and progress, and to determine existing bevel angles to match these when sharpening. Now, it just takes a quick glance. Just a spot check to see I’m doing what I want to do, is correct.
At the onset of my sharpening experience with my new W.E.P.S. I bought all the tools and aids, too. All the helpful toys. When I first used a USB scope I too was impressed by what I could see and I could photograph. I became interested in the quality of the magnified view. At that point I was still “oohing and aahing” over seeing the close ups of bevel damage and then the scratches and gouges in my steel knife edges that I had applied and caused with my sharpening stones. I thought, if I only had a better scope with a better view??? A scope that would let me see more and better…just what your wanting.
As I started to gain experiences and to gain control and confidence with my sharpening ability, by that time, I had correlated the placement of the scratches with the results I could expect through proper technique and grit progression. That is, if only I did the processes consistently and well. The view with the scope became less important. It required just a quick glance then I was back to the task at hand, sharpening strokes. I learned I was really more interested in seeing the scratches were diminishing.
Some people want to calibrate their scopes so they can correlate what they’re seeing and the size of it in relation to the field of view at that power. This was not something that interests me so that function was not important to me. I’m just interested in what is there that I can see, damage, bevel shapes and scratch patterns in particular, and what I don’t see.
These days, only when I’m looking to take a bevel picture to make a point while sharing the photographs does the quality of the microscope view really matter. If your looking to make another separate hobby of microscopic scratch pattern photography, or seriously, metallurgical analysis of hardened steels while sharpening knives, or abrasive particle size measurement, then maybe a better USB scope may be called for. Just for getting top rate results sharpening knives with your W.E., not so much. Even as I was going through everything your sharing today, by resurrecting this earlier thread, I eventually had bought 6 or 7 scopes chasing that better view. Each one “better” and more expensive then the last. For me, the first, simplest, least expensive scope I purchased, is still my go-to favorite. The only scope I use.
I’m glad to see you are reading back through old forum posts. There’s lots of great information to glean. I commend your efforts.
From what I’ve learned, the “wifi” USB scopes aren’t too good. Those in the price points most of us would be interested in, may include a separate transmitter box that connects the scope to your home wifi network. These types of scopes generally do not connect directly to your device through the wifi. Also, I’ve read others have shared they drop the wifi connections easily. I’ve not seen any direct connect blue tooth scopes. Also, there are Mac compatible USB wired scopes that seem to be similar in functionality to Windows compatible USB wired scopes. The issue here is finding the compatible download-able software app for the scope that matches your particular device and it’s OS version. The advantage of using a wired USB scopes is you can use it with an A/C powered laptop and leave it on hours on end. This way the scope just lays there “on”, ready to use, anytime I grab it. There are some Android compatible wired USB scopes that can be used with an “OTG” adapter. iOS compatible scopes for iPhone devices are generally more expensive and fewer and far between. Using scopes with smart devices there is also a battery life issue. Some smart devices with a specific OS and usually a special cable adapter can use a scope while charging/powering the devices simultaneously.







