Warning this gets long so bare with me please. So I have done about 12 knifes now and feel like the stones are comming along pretty well now. So far I have been just working on technique and breaking in the stones. The last 2 knifes( which have just been cheap hunting knifes that I had messed up pretty bad trying to freehand on cheap stones) I have been focusing on getting the prefect bevel on both side and taking my time and trying to get them sharp. Now for last nights knife in particular really bugged me!!! Hoping someone can help. Sorry I didn’t take pics. Ok so I went to 17.5 dps which was pretty close to the angle. I reprofiled until almost reaching the apex then switched to the 400s. I checked the angle with an angle cube between every stone change. So with the 400s I removed all the previous grit ( I have a 60x loop)and had formed a burr on both side. Oh and at this point I also ran the 1000 down the length of the edge to get some new metal then switched to the 600s and repeated. Now when I finished with the 600s and the 800s the edge was really sharp and I thought I was doing good so I proceeded all the way threw the 1500s but didn’t check the sharpness anymore but keep inspecting the edge with the loupe and removing the previous scratches and making sure each stone was getting to the apex. Well when I took to knife out and inspected the sharpness it wouldn’t even shave arm hair!!! I was a lot sharper at the 600-800 stage. Oh and I went from 17.5 dps to 19.5 dps to the 800s with 3 strokes on each side for an it of a micro bevel. Am I missing something?
Two things:
- Sounds like you lost the shaving ability when you added the micro bevel (from17.5 dps to 19.5 dps) - tradeoff of durability vs. sharpness
- Just finished reading through "The Diamond Plate Progression" on https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/ which was done with SEM on a carbon steel razor with DMT product (WEPS uses DMT from what I understand). The results are counterintuitive (finer grit is not necessarily sharper) and I was wondering what folks here think ?
It is possible that you did not reach the apex of the bevel when using the 1000# and 1500# plates. You can always verify that you have reached the apex by putting sharpie on the edge, doing a few strokes, and examining the edge with a loupe to ensure that no sharpie remains on the bevels. It only takes a few moments and it really does work.
Another possibility is that you didn’t quite do enough strokes to make a micro bevel and instead just dulled the existing bevel. Examination of the bevels with a loupe should give you a clue about whether this is the cause. Another thing is that you should use light pressure (weight of the paddles only) when putting the micro bevel on.
I know that it is entirely possible to get an edge that easily shaves hair at 19.5 degrees per side, so the angle you’re using is not the source of the problem.
Did you work on removing burr after each grit? It is not visible in loupe, but it is there.
I was surprised, but burr is created even after edge leading strokes. You need to work on burr after any direction. It doesn’t matter if you can feel it on not. It is always there.
Yes I did form a burr on the 800 and 1000 but couldn’t tell on the 1500. I start off with scrubbing one side at a time 1 to help remove the prior scratchs and 2 to help raise the burr then after that do 50-100 swipes of alternating strokes. As for the micro bevel I did use the weight of the paddles only. Only thing I was thinking it that micro bevel did take some of the sharpness away but wasn’t sure if that was possible. Thank u for the responses. I’m still not sure what happened. I used the loupe three the entire prosses and used the sharpie on the apex near the end of every grit
Just how cheap is this knife? Others on this forum have said that some blades have been heat treated so poorly that they will not take an edge reliably. Is this the only knife that you’ve experienced this with?
On the positive side, it sounds like you are doing things the correct way.
Interesting Science of Sharp blog, Readheads. And it makes sense, too.
Mark76, so how do we apply that to the WEPS progression. BTW I only do kitchen knives.
Is it fair to say that keenness and sharpness max out at 800-1000 grit ?
Do we put a very small micro bevel on the knife (at max 1000 grit) after the full “polish” progression ?
[quote quote=37051]Two things:
- Sounds like you lost the shaving ability when you added the micro bevel (from17.5 dps to 19.5 dps) – tradeoff of durability vs. sharpness
- Just finished reading through “The Diamond Plate Progression” on https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/ which was done with SEM on a carbon steel razor with DMT product (WEPS uses DMT from what I understand). The results are counterintuitive (finer grit is not necessarily sharper) and I was wondering what folks here think ?
I just finished reading that blog post. It was very interesting and could be relevant to the issue here, but it should be no problem to get a hair shaving edge with the progression that Mikeyv is using.
Also, Wicked Edge does not use DMT diamond plates. They had one DMT plate (a 3 micron diamond) that Clay recently replaced with the 1500# plate from the same manufacturer that produces the 50#-1000# plates for them. The DMT plate seemed to perform like a much coarser grit than listed.
Mikeyv, Do you have this problem with one particular knife or with other knifes too? Did you find what was wrong?
I haven’t figured out what was wrong yet. I sharpened a different knife last night and went down to the 1500 again. This knife came out pretty sharp. I will get that knife back out to day and inspect it and try it again. I have an esse 4 that I am ready to do. It’s going to be the first knife of decent quality beside my spydico delica which is a beat to crap. After about 15 knifes now nothing has came out super sharp yet even going down to 1 micron film. I have been trying to reprofile a lot of the knife to also help break in the stones. I would think those knifes will get better on follow visits.
Mike: You might want to closely keep track of the scratch patterns with each step to make sure you are actually working the apex. Another good reason to alternate directions. I recently posted over my bench a sheet of paper showing a direction for each grit. For instance, I always stroke down and away with 1000 grit. 800 would always be down and towards me and so on and so on for both higher and lower grits.
Working the apex? The objective is to establish an apex edge with your beginning grit. You can confirm this with a loupe or a microscope or by using the burr as an indicator. Once you’ve established the apex, all subsequent grits are refining the edge (we’re talking sharpness here, not polish). I’ve found that it’s possible to not reach the apex with those subsequent grits - caused by misadjustments or stone thickness or whatever. Watch closely to confirm to yourself that the scratch pattern for each grit is actually reaching the apex - if it doesn’t, it’s not contributing to edge refinement.
If you intend to put in a micro-bevel, It’s not important to work the edge beyond the point where you’ve established an apex edge with the first stone (example: I use 400 to establish an apexed edge. Higher grit if it’s a re-sharpening).
That said, a micro-bevel made by a relatively coarse grit or by heavy-handed stoning will probably be perceived to be not as sharp as a more refined edge.
I was inspecting with a loupe often. With that being said it’s a cheap one and after useing it more and more I am learning what to look for. On that particular knife I wasn’t checking the angle with the angle cube during paddle change so it’s very very possible I wasnt hitting the entire apex even tho it looked like it threw my untrained eyes. As for the burr do y’all get a good burr formed that with stop your nail if u run it up it or just enough to feel a slight burr? A knife I did last night I just did matched the prior angle and noticed I could raise a really good burr as where the other knife I could just barely feel the burr. I did notice there is slight variance from paddle to paddle Whitichen a higher grit would mean one might have to work longer to reach the apex.
I have noticed that re profiling takes a realllllllyyyyyyy long time!!! Might start doing it in smaller steps over different snarling periods or just take it to the belt sander
Tc,
Do u always go edge leading?
Just for me, when I find it’s taking too long I step down to a coarser stone to remove metal quicker. Of course I get deeper rougher scratches to contend with. I wore out my 800/1000 diamond stone fast before I learned this. I find when my edge isn’t feeling sharp as I progress it’s what Tom suggested, that I hadn’t sharpened to the apex. A microscope helps to see what I’m doing but nothing replaces feeling the edge, for me. Also I do check my stones with an angle gauge each progression even if I’m just flipping it over. I think a few tenths to a half a degree off may make me miss the apex. And when it’s not getting sharp my tendency was to continue sharpening longer with that stone hence removing more metal than was necessary.
I generally use scrubbing strokes an leading edge mostly, changing directions as I progress through the paddles to see how well I’m removing the last scratches and, of course, trailing strokes with the lapping films and strops.
Care to guess in how many hours, years, knives, strokes, anything, how long your diamond stone lasted?
They lasted about 2-1/2 years, lots of knives and lots of strokes. Trying to sharpen super hard new fangled stainless steels when I should have stepped down to coarser grits was probably their early death. Hence my earlier advice. Now as soon as it seems I not making headway or having to exert too much pressure I try going lower grit and look how that’s working.
I’ve always felt that edge trailing strokes had a tendency to break off chunks of the edge. Clay did some microscope studies this last year which pretty much confirmed it. But do I only use edge-leading strokes? Not necessarily. With lower grits (400/600) I’ll often use scrubbing strokes, but apply more pressure on the down-stroke (edge leading) than on the up-stroke. Depends on how impatient I am. With the 100/200s (which I very seldom use) I’ll go strictly edge leading. The chunks these babies will tear out are really nasty and take a really long time to remove. With 800/1000s, or higher grits, I think there is less of a tendency to break out chips/chunks from the edge, so I won’t necessarily stick to edge-leading, although higher magnifications might prove me wrong.
Please note that I do not use alternating strokes except on the last five strokes or so for the final grit. The size of the burr is dependent on the grit and the number of strokes you’ve taken on one side. Alternating strokes pretty much eliminate any trace of a burr. I don’t think I’ve ever raised a burr that was large enough to hook my fingernail on. Of course, I bite my fingernails so that’s a moot point anyway. You can feel even a very small burr with your fingertips. But with finer grits the burr will be barely detectable by feel. On a USB microscope, a burr will appear to be a very thin, bright line along the apex. Usually, only a few, light strokes on the opposite side will knock off the burr.
FWIW, I prefer to use single-sided strokes because of a neural deficit I have. I am on Tramadol for nerve pain and this deadens my sensitivity to touch and my eye-hand coordination. Single-sided strokes are just easier for me. Ain’t nobody gonna talk me out of my Tramadol. If you do the alternating stroke thing, it’ll be hard to detect any burr.
Yep. That is another theory that you possibly didn’t reach apex with your first lower grit. All consecutive grits didn’t sharpen the edge then. It is very important to reach apex with your first stone.
It is confusing though. You said that edge was very sharp at 600 grit. So it is pretty puzzling in what you are saying.