It Just Keeps Getting Better!

Legacy Forum Archive welcome-mat
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Hey All, new member here from Wisconsin. I’ve been using the WE pro pack for about a year. As time has gone on, I’ve found the whole system just keep getting better. I started with the basic kit, added basic ceramics, added paste and strops, got the new arms, got the new ceramics, and yesterday received my first set of Chosera stones (800/1000K). If your on the fence about purchasing the Chosera’s – "Be Like Bo and Just Do It! Got to hand it to Bob Nash of Oldawan Tools – he and his crew get me all my new goodies in about in two days!

I just read Wiki, and the use of water stones. There was a nice write up and photos by Philip Pasteur. After reading it I have a couple of questions: he said he used ceramics after 1000K diamond and before the 800/1000K Chosera. Does that mean both sets of ceramics before the Chosera’s 1200, 1600, 1.4 and 0.6 um?

Second I read another post about chipping. One of the individuals made a comment about not using diamonds on blades with a certain Rockwell Hardness. Can anyone clarify – sorry I couldn’t find the post. Up until now, I’ve been working on Chicago class chef’s knives. But with some more knowledge and some additional water stones, I’d like try sharpening some of my nicer chef’s s knives. Thanks for any advice.

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I experience dirty micro chipping on a white carbon 61-64 HRC using diamond stones, it was all my fault for apexing the edge with diamonds though. I did manage, at the time, to get a edge on that Deba using the diamond stones and finishing with balsa and leather strops, but I had to be very gentle with the diamond stones. I personally don’t recommend trying to refine an edge with diamond stones on chippy steel or anything about 62 HRC IMO.

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That is a bit of a generalization, and should be taken as that rather than a hard and fast rule. As just one example I have done some ZDP 189 at between (different blades) 65 to 67 Hrc. I have not yet seen or had cause to believe that there was any micro chipping caused by using all of the diamond plates from 100 through 1000.
Much depends on the steel you are talking about, probably more so than the hardness. It also is dependent on your technique. BTW, the ZDP 189 was sharpened to a burr with the 100 grit dimonds and apexed at every grit from there on up.

Possibly I did not completely understand what you were saying though. What do you mean when you say “trying to refine and edge”, in the context of your statement. I guess that I wouldn’t consider any edge really refined after the 1K diamonds. Granted, some folks love that edge, but refined… nope!

Phil

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[quote quote=“CrisScott” post=9702]
I just read Wiki, and the use of water stones. There was a nice write up and photos by Philip Pasteur. After reading it I have a couple of questions: he said he used ceramics after 1000K diamond and before the 800/1000K Chosera. Does that mean both sets of ceramics before the Chosera’s 1200, 1600, 1.4 and 0.6 um?[/quote]

You have to remember that I was trying to make a few points when I did that progression. One of those dealt with the effect of the Ceramic stones compared to the Chosera stones. I wanted to refine the edge as much as I could with the entire ceramic progression and then show the difference in what the chosera progression does. I felt that the “dropping back” to the 800/1K choseras would allow me to more easily remove the scratch pattern from the ceramic stones and show the pattern of the beginning of…and up through the rest of the Choseras. You will have to play with the order to see how it fits into accomplishing what you are looking for.

If I want a great edge but do not think a blade, or my fee warrants the Choseras, I often finish with the Ceramic stones and a bit of stropping. If you want a pretty reflective edge, finish with your Chosera stones. Even after the 1K, you will see a very nice brightening of the bevel. Before I got any of the ceramics ( I just had to get the two sets to see what everyone was talking about) I would quite often use the 800/1K after the diamonds, and apply the strops for a bit and call it good. No one ever complained about that edge.

Check above for a few of my thoughts on this. I think that hardness is just one of many things to take into consideration. I can say that I have sharpened quite a few knives that were made of steel that is often referred to as chippy, and not had chipping issues when sharpening them. Most of the time a steel saddled with the term chippy gets that tittle due to it chipping in use.

If you ever do see micro chipping while sharpening, look at the angle you are using and your technique before attributing the problem to being correlated to a Rockwell hardness rating and diamond stones.

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Hi there

Would you also say that you could go directly from 1.4 and 0.6 um ceramics to chosera 5k/10k to get a refined edge? Or is that too large jump so you would have to spend too long time on the choseras to see any effect?

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That is a bit of a generalization, and should be taken as that rather than a hard and fast rule. As just one example I have done some ZDP 189 at between (different blades) 65 to 67 Hrc. I have not yet seen or had cause to believe that there was any micro chipping caused by using all of the diamond plates from 100 through 1000.
Much depends on the steel you are talking about, probably more so than the hardness. It also is dependent on your technique. BTW, the ZDP 189 was sharpened to a burr with the 100 grit dimonds and apexed at every grit from there on up.

Possibly I did not completely understand what you were saying though. What do you mean when you say “trying to refine and edge”, in the context of your statement. I guess that I wouldn’t consider any edge really refined after the 1K diamonds. Granted, some folks love that edge, but refined… nope!

Phil[/quote]

Hey there Phil,
Learning very quickly you are always on the ball. You’re right… It was a very vague and generalized comment that i made, allow me to clarify my comment. I was referring to my experience with white carbon (aka aogami 1 (just for you Phil the composition of white carbon steel C 1.25-1.35; W 1.50-2.00; CR 0.30-0.50; Mn 0.20-0.30; P 0.025; S 0.004; Si 0.10-0.20)) I’ve also found a vague breakdown of ZDP 189 (C 3.00; W 1.50; V 0.10; Cr 20.00; Mo 1.30; Mn?; P?; S?; Si? Not trying to give anyone a chemistry lesson but Phil is right when he said it depends on the type of steel verse the HRC rating. As I am learning you can have the exact same knife from the same brand but the hardness could be 1-3 points different because of the slightly different heat treatments. The main reason I found White steel super chippy was the low amount of chromium that adds toughness to a steel and not having vanadium added at all. Don’t get me wrong the persistence of tungsten is what helps white carbon from being so brittle after heat treating but it can only do so much. The other issue with my example is the knife in question is a hand made knife where a blacksmith in some little dark hole with a fire burning is gauging the temperature of the steel by color or experience, which leaves a lot of room for error. The ZDP 189 you offered is a powder super steel that is usually only used in a “lab” production setting where everything is controlled with precision (hence the reason those knives are usually stupid expensive).

In terms of using diamond stones on “hard” steels I still don’t support it. I don’t see the point of taking a Ferrari for a drive on a snowy day, but hey if you got it and want to its all yours. Like I said I was able to polish and get an edge on the knife using diamond stones, anything is possible with determination and your right it involved a lot of changes in my technique and how i was sharpening. What I meant by “Refined” was an apexed edge free of chips and fractures, uniform at the apex in my case at 400x magnification. I really guess the term refined means something different to everyone, I am working on getting the japanese water stones this year so I can also understand what you mean by “refined.” Have you had a chance to see the apexed edge of your zdp 189 under big magnification at various grits? i’d be interested to see pictures.

I hope this helps clear some stuff up Phil, I hope I don’t come off as standoffish. Not my intention:(

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I have not done this. The 5K/10K stones were the last ones I got in the Chosera line. If ending up with those, I have always gone through the entire progression, often starting with the 400/600. But remember what I am trying to accomplish when taking that amount of time.. I want a visibly scratch free bevel along with the edge that goes with the 1.7 micron grit of the 10K. That scratch removal part would be time consuming ..I think… jumping from the ceramic to the 5K 10K. If you are not concerned about the scratches, maybe it would be ok for you. Give it atry. If you aren’t happy with the results, get the 2K/3K pair for an interim step.

[quote quote=“johpe” post=9713]Hi there

Would you also say that you could go directly from 1.4 and 0.6 um ceramics to chosera 5k/10k to get a refined edge? Or is that too large jump so you would have to spend too long time on the choseras to see any effect?[/quote]

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quote=“nicholas6225” post=9714[/quote]

[quote]
What I meant by “Refined” was an apexed edge free of chips and fractures, uniform at the apex in my case at 400x magnification. I really guess the term refined means something different to everyone, I am working on getting the japanese water stones this year so I can also understand what you mean by “refined.” Have you had a chance to see the apexed edge of your zdp 189 under big magnification at various grits? i’d be interested to see pictures.

I hope this helps clear some stuff up Phil, I hope I don’t come off as standoffish. Not my intention [/quote]

When I say refined… I guess I don’t even consider chips and fractures. If they are there, I would be very, very surprised. I have never seen them while sharpening. I thought about this some since I read your post a few hours ago. It may be that I always do a considerable amount of work after the 1K stones. Even when I have tried the process that some like so much.. ending with the 1K diamonds, I strop with at least 4 grits. Perhaps that work is fixing the things that you worry about. Not sure…

400X… hmm, I have a Veho 400X USB camera. Using it to get pictures has been nothing but an exercise in frustration for me. I obviously need one of the good stands to get the results that I want for captures. I do, however use it hand held to examine edges. That way I can see what I want on the screen by fiddling with the angle and the lights. That is enough for me. Don’t expect any photos using that system from me … unless I invest the money in a proper stand, Not on my priority list right now.

The progression I did for the chosera discussion was done with digital camera suing the macro lense, extension tubes and magnifiers. I have to get my dogs out of the house, because just them walking in a different room screws things up. A major production. Not happening for the purposes of this discussion. I did drag my Endura 4 in ZDP 189 out and used the little pocket microscope at 100X to examine both sides of the blade for the entire length. It was done with the full diamond progression, burr at 100 grit, last stones 10K chosera, several grits of compound on leather, kangaroo, and nanocloth ending with 0.025 CBN. I can see absolutely no evidence of chipping or fracturing. Actually, after carrying it 40 or so times and using it moderately hard, it looked damn good.
I was pleasantly surprised. If I can’t see a defect at 100X, honestly, I don’t worry about it. 400X it great when examining the effects of sub-micron abrasives. Looking at the effects of 1K diamonds, well I would fully expect the edge to look a bit rough at 400X.

Check out some of the progression photos that Clay has done … they are very illuminating… so to speak.

http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=1824&Itemid=63

I hope the link works… somehow it did not open properly form the WIKI page…

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Thanks for the great info.

I’m about to begin sharpening some nicer German & Japanese chef’s knives, is there any reason (generalizing and assuming good technique), 100 to 600K diamonds should not be used for reprofiling before moving onto the 400/600K Chosera’s? Or are the 400/600K Choser’s meant for that task? My goal is to have functional knives with an edge that will last. So, I probably wouldn’t go beyond ultra fine 0.6 um ceramics or 2,000/3000K Chosera’s – for this task I’m not concerned with a mirror finish.

There was a lot information in the replies about different metal compositions and hardness. Are there a couple of good resources where I can learn more? I’ve checked several commercial knife manufactures web sites and some of the info can be scant if not impossible to find.

Now I have a question on new arm maintenance. On the ball joints I’ve been using dry lube. Do you have any other recommendations. The micro adjustment screws are very tight/difficult to move. Is there some form of lube that can be used to allow them to adjust easier?

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Hey Chris,
I am wondering if your questions might be better asked in the appropriate parts of the forum. There is a seciotn for sharpening techniques… and one for maintenance. We kind of have strayed from the welcoming mat. Probably best to have thes things where others can find them easily.

As we were already there, and just my opinion .. which I thought I had made clear, there is nothing wrong with starting with the dimonds. The 400 Chosera cuts very well, but for reprofiling in a decent amount of time, it will not be as effective as the diamonds. I could easily see going to the 400 Chosera after the 200 grit dimond plates. Again, I usually use, on any knife, all of the diamonds because they are fast and well suited for removing scratches and refining the edge one after the other in sequence. The easiest way to figure this out would to just do it and by doing that decide what works for you. I sincerely doubt that you will ruin your knives in either scenario. You may well find that you like to do things entirely differently that the way I do them (or the way anyone else does). Sharpen, observe and learn.

As to knife steels, there is a huge amount of information online. Use you favorite search engine. I don’t know of one place that I could send you that covers it all.
Here are a few that I have read, but there are many more.

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/knife-steel-comparison-chart.html

Also both Bladeforums.com and Knifeforums.com have extensive discussions about blade steel.
Go to either site and search on the name of the steel you want to know about. I have not yet dones that and not found a great deal of information.

If you know a type of steel you can find its composition and compare it to other steels here:

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php

The you probably want to know about heat treating and hardening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Matter/Hardening.html

http://www.primitiveways.com/Steel%20heat%20treatment.html

http://www.asminternational.org/content/ASM/StoreFiles/ACF180B.pdf

Now these are just a few that I have bookmarked. There is a huge amount of information out there. There have been volumes written on the subject and the study of steels and their behavior and properties is a field of study and an entire science unto itself. You could also visit your local library and find a wealth of information on this field of study.

In other words, you just need to dig and spend some time, there are far more than a couple of good resouces, and no single source that I know of is complete.

11

Hey Chris,
I am wondering if your questions might be better asked in the appropriate parts of the forum. There is a seciotn for sharpening techniques… and one for maintenance. We kind of have strayed from the welcoming mat. Probably best to have thes things where others can find them easily.

As we were already there, and just my opinion .. which I thought I had made clear, there is nothing wrong with starting with the dimonds. The 400 Chosera cuts very well, but for reprofiling in a decent amount of time, it will not be as effective as the diamonds. I could easily see going to the 400 Chosera after the 200 grit dimond plates. Again, I usually use, on any knife, all of the diamonds because they are fast and well suited for removing scratches and refining the edge one after the other in sequence. The easiest way to figure this out would to just do it and by doing that decide what works for you. I sincerely doubt that you will ruin your knives in either scenario. You may well find that you like to do things entirely differently that the way I do them (or the way anyone else does). Sharpen, observe and learn.

As to knife steels, there is a huge amount of information online. Use you favorite search engine. I don’t know of one place that I could send you that covers it all.
Here are a few that I have read, but there are many more.

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/knife-steel-comparison-chart.html

Also both Bladeforums.com and Knifeforums.com have extensive discussions about blade steel.
Go to either site and search on the name of the steel you want to know about. I have not yet dones that and not found a great deal of information.

If you know a type of steel you can find its composition and compare it to other steels here:

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php

The you probably want to know about heat treating and hardening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Matter/Hardening.html

http://www.primitiveways.com/Steel%20heat%20treatment.html

http://www.asminternational.org/content/ASM/StoreFiles/ACF180B.pdf

Now these are just a few that I have bookmarked. There is a huge amount of information out there. There have been volumes written on the subject and the study of steels and their behavior and properties is a field of study and an entire science unto itself. You could also visit your local library and find a wealth of information on this field of study.

In other words, you just need to dig and spend some time, there are far more than a couple of good resources, and no single source that I know of is complete.

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[quote quote=“PhilipPasteur” post=9754]Hey Chris,
As to knife steels, there is a huge amount of information online. Use you favorite search engine. I don’t know of one place that I could send you that covers it all.
Here are a few that I have read, but there are many more.

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/knife-steel-comparison-chart.html

Also both Bladeforums.com and Knifeforums.com have extensive discussions about blade steel.
Go to either site and search on the name of the steel you want to know about. I have not yet dones that and not found a great deal of information.

If you know a type of steel you can find its composition and compare it to other steels here:

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php

The you probably want to know about heat treating and hardening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Matter/Hardening.html

http://www.primitiveways.com/Steel%20heat%20treatment.html

http://www.asminternational.org/content/ASM/StoreFiles/ACF180B.pdf

Now these are just a few that I have bookmarked. There is a huge amount of information out there. There have been volumes written on the subject and the study of steels and their behavior and properties is a field of study and an entire science unto itself. You could also visit your local library and find a wealth of information on this field of study.

In other words, you just need to dig and spend some time, there are far more than a couple of good resouces, and no single source that I know of is complete.[/quote]

AWESOME!!! you are my idol Phil!!!

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Thanks again for the great info. I’ll look through the other forums.