First question

Legacy Forum Archive basic-techniques-and-sharpening-strategies
1

All,

So, got the WEPS (Pro Pack 1), and was extremely pleased with the packing in the box, as well as the all around quality of the device.

But, as so many others have seen, the edge I got on my first knife was, bluntly (har har) terrible.

One thing I’m wondering about is that in the documents it says to make sure the stone doesn’t come off the edge of the knife. So, my question is, does that include the tip? I haven’t seen any good videos that show whether the person is basically pulling away with the stone as it reaches the end, or are they running off the tip of the blade continuing the “arc”. I think it would probably take a top down slow motion video to really see this, so I figured I’d just ask instead.

Anyone?

2

I initially tried running the stone beyond the tip in an “imaginary arc” like you described but didn’t like that.

I learned to just stop when the tip is about half way across the stone. It’s pretty easy to tell.

3

Okay. Yeah, I figured I might end up rounding off the tip. =/ I’m going to try again tonight and not go off the tip.

Anyone else do this this way?

4

I was going to add a bit more to my post… but you’re fast. :slight_smile:

If you watch some of Clay’s videos, you’ll notice that he can “attack the blade” from any direction… heel to tip or tip to heel, while going edge trailing or edge leading. By learning to stop at the tip… it made it easier to start at the tip if I want to change directions and still do a edge trailing stroke. This helps if, for example, I want to change the direction of the striations left by the stone… which influences how the knife cuts, or I want to work a particular section a bit more.

I also found that, by running off the tip, you may not round it necessarily (although that does happen), but you’ll keep sharpening the tip away and forming a new one with each stroke. This can cause a subtle (at first) change to the blade profile… until all of a sudden you notice your knife has a totally new shape. (This isn’t WE specific btw… it can happen with just about any sharpening method).

5

That makes sense, and what I was probably experiencing. The crappy edge I got probably was the result of not fully developing the burr on the knife, which I figured would happen, I just need to take longer.

Thanks for the input. I’m going to try some more tonight. Will post back with results.

6

Working with the tip of a knife is definitely the most challenging part to develop a technique for, when you’re first starting out. I still have to get some more practice with the fore-aft placement in the clamp to match the blade’s curve, which can definitely impact the profile if you hurry through that stage to get to the sharpening process. One of the first tasks I took up after practicing on some junky blades was to restore the edge on my tanto blade Hogue, which has served as a great knife to focus on handling the stones properly to keep the geometry crisp.

Definitely be patient on your first few tries, you’ll get a feel for the burr forming and how each stone does. Later on you can use the 200 and 400 for restoring edges that aren’t too bad, once you practice a bit and get a good idea how fast each grit removes metal. Also you’ll probably go overboard initially and end up with a REALLY hardcore burr :slight_smile:

7

Gotcha. Yeah, I should have taken a picture of this blade before, because I honestly can’t recall if it had much of a tip or not. Right now, there’s not much for the tip, it’s pretty rounded, and I’m not entirely sure if I did that, or if it was already like that. Luckily, it’s a POS paring knife.

I was kind of shocked how fast the 100 grit removes metal.

Will work on it tonight and report back, but I’m guessing with some more work with the 100/200, and a good developed burr, I should be good to go.

8

Wow, okay, what a difference a day makes.

So, first off, the knife I was playing with is an old Robinson “Stainless Steel” pairing knife. Awesome, right.

So, last night, I went 22°, but tonight, I changed to 20° (would have gone shallower except the blade is too short to allow for any less). So, I started from scratch, and made sure to build up a full burr. Then “polished” away with 100/200/400/600/800/1000. Results, better, but not great. So, went back down to 400, and built a burr again, this time pretty quickly since it was apexed already, and went back up the progression, taking more time at each step. Results, better still, but not awesome. So, back down to 600, burr, repeat. Results, pretty good. Cuts paper well, but doesn’t push cut, or anything, and still not nearly as sharp as my Shun pairing knife.

Okay, so, I think “maybe it’s the steel”. Grab another old dull pairing knife. This one a 30 year old Gerber. Still doing 20°. Burr, polish, polish, polish. Whole process took me maybe 20 minutes, at most (largely during commercials of “Castle”). Finish with 1000, and the edge is at least 2x better than the Robinson. Cool. So, I figure I should try stropping (I’ve never really stropped a knife before, and honestly thought it was kind of silly to think leather would really do much). First dry, and they do something, but not much after a few minutes. So, I grab the paste, and do the 5µ side. Boy howdy, after a few minutes I had something, Didn’t hurt the strops at all as the motion for me is quite natural. “Finished” with that, and moved to 3.5µ. Even better. It’ll push-cut paper now. I am still not sure it’s as sharp as the Shun, but I’m figuring some of that is angle (Shun being 16°).

One other thing of note: boy do the shoulders burn after 20-30 minutes of solid work. Guessing that’ll pass though once those muscles get used to it. =)

So, what did I learn? 1. It’s all about the burr, stupid. 2. patience. If it sucks, don’t be afraid to go back and redo a step. 3. Steel quality/type heavily influences edge quality. 4. Stropping isn’t make-believe.

I’m very impressed, and glad I splurged on the Pro-Pack I. Because while the 600grit edge on the Gerber was very serviceable, it was nothing compared to the edge post 800/1000, and stropping. =)

Going to keep at it and will be sure to ask any questions I come across. Will also be posting a review on my site in the coming days. Want to try something bigger than a pairing knife first, though. =D

Thanks for all the help everyone. The learning process, while still/always ongoing, would be MUCH steeper and daunting if not for this forum and its members. =D

9

Hey Staze,

That’s a great write-up of your process. Thanks for posting it. I think you’ll find that the more sharpening you do, the better it will get, especially as your stones break in more. I know I preach it a lot, but there is a considerable break in period with the stones and you’ll continue to be surprised at the constant improvement. The results that the strops produce are pretty awesome. If you look around the forum at some of the microscopic photos of edges I and others have done, you can really see just how much the strops are doing at the microscopic level to improve the edge. Happy sharpening.

–Clay

10

Nice write up… this comment though made me wonder if maybe you’re using too much pressure? Just thought I’d mention it… too much pressure can be counter productive. (Sometimes there’s a clue in passing comments.). :slight_smile:

11

yes, and the first time on the first blade, that might have been the case. But I’ve read ApexGS enough to know the “barely make contact” which I did the times that worked. The 100 stones I used a bit of pressure, but the rest of the stones I actually hold back some of the weight of the stones.

No, I think it’s just my shoulders are not used to that motion. I bet a rower would be an awesome sharpener. =)

12

[quote quote=“wickededge” post=5631]Hey Staze,

That’s a great write-up of your process. Thanks for posting it. I think you’ll find that the more sharpening you do, the better it will get, especially as your stones break in more. I know I preach it a lot, but there is a considerable break in period with the stones and you’ll continue to be surprised at the constant improvement. The results that the strops produce are pretty awesome. If you look around the forum at some of the microscopic photos of edges I and others have done, you can really see just how much the strops are doing at the microscopic level to improve the edge. Happy sharpening.
[/quote]

Clay, yeah, I’ve seen the photos, but honestly, something in my head just went “sure, it LOOKS more refined, but it can’t be that much sharper”. And I’ll be the first to admit, I was wrong. =P It’s a pretty marked improvement. The blade went from being able to cut paper okay, to being able to cut it smoothly and without much effort. I know paper is kind of “the” test, but as Bruce Lee said “Board’s don’t hit back”. So I’ll really know how sharp it is when I go to actually use the knife. =)

Going to move on to an old pocket knife tonight and see what I can do with that. I have to wonder how long the upward curve continues. I mean, that first hump is learning. Learning to make the burr, learning when to move on, etc, and that one will continue for a while yet, as I (or anyone) gets to know the sound/feel of the stones as they finish their stage.

Then there’s the curve that’s going on at the same time of the stones breaking in. And it’s pretty obvious how they’ve changed since the first time. The first time I used the 100/200’s, I was kind of shocked by the amount of dust (metal, and diamond I’d guess) that was generated (some of that, no doubt, was from resetting the angle as well. Felt like I needed a vacuum. After that initial go round, the dust dropped off a lot (though it still gets everywhere on the clamp, board, etc).

I’d probably compare it to owning a Prius (which I do). From when you first get it, you learn how to best drive to get the best mileage (much to the annoyance of other people on the road). =P But also during that time, your tires are breaking in, as well as your engine, which as time goes on, lead to better and better mileage. Grippy new tires get worse mileage than nicely aged ones (until they get to bald, when it goes backward a bit). So my hope is that the stones don’t work the best right before they need to be replaced. =P The whole idea of a “break-in” period doesn’t make sense to some people, but you just have to keep reassuring them “yes, you will get better as time goes on, and no, it’s not ALL from skill”.

Thanks very much Clay, and everyone, as always. My goal is to be good enough that I can have family bring knives to Thanksgiving to sharpen, which after the first knife I doubted a bit, but after last night’s experience, I’m fairly confident it shouldn’t be a problem. =)

13

You should see the pile of knives I have here on my desk from practicing! I’ve made my fair share of screwups too, including on my very own EDC knife I accidentally used the wrong depth key holes! I had to throw it in reverse and go back to 600 grit to undo the slight amount of accidental reprofiling I caused with the 1000 grit touch up. That’s one of the best things about the system, I’ve found… being able to undo those D’OH moments pretty easily and learn from a bit of extra work, rather than a ruined chunk of steel.

@Clay: Now you have me preaching the stone wear-in gospel too! Just in the maybe six weeks or so I’ve had my kit (has it really been that long?) all of the stones have settled in nicely and continue to improve.

On the topic of pressure, there are times where some elbow grease helps but by and large on most normal sized knives and MANY types of steel, pressure is detrimental. I had to really put some muscle into profiling that kukri, but some cheap made in China cutlery a friend brought over would chip just sneezing on it. The first week or so was all countering my natural heavy-handedness on the stones.

Regarding stropping, that’s something I’m slowly collecting more knowledge about but the Pro Pack definitely gives you a glimpse of how effective it can be. There’s a big gap between 1000 grit diamond stones and a 5 micron paste, though, so until the stones wear in a bit you’ll be seeing edges that aren’t super polished… but plenty sharp! The best looking edges I’ve done took a long time stropping with both 5 and 3.5 micron pastes from the Pro Pack, so I’m already looking at bridging that gap. I’ve read a lot about sandpaper and figured I’d try that out, treating the more fragile paper (and different media, aluminum oxide typically) as more of a stropping operation. I can say that 600 grit wet/dry makes a pretty nice edge, looking forward to getting the grits up to 3000 (not available locally, anywhere :frowning: )

Whew, wall of text! Look at me sounding all edumacated and stuff! :lol:

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Yes, definitely. Or the ability to just step back and go "maybe I could get this a bit sharper if I go back to 600 and work a bit more on that.

Yes. Which, brings up a point I’m wondering about. What do you do about the “drop” of the stone to the blade (as you come back around and start at the heel of the blade again, that initial contact of the stone to the blade). Do you just do that as lightly as possible, or…? I would think that impact, however light, if the blade is truly apexed, is going to cause some deformation each time.

Yes. I am going to try sandpaper in the coming weeks. I bought some at a local Autozone (a combo pack of 1000/1500/2000/2500 half sheets). 3000 grit is weird stuff. It’s green/grey and kind of cushy. http://www.amazon.com/3M-01459-Trizact-Performance-Sanding/dp/B005CEHTEY I haven’t ever used it. The 1000-2500 stuff, I have used when I was lapping a water block for my computer (I used to have a water cooled computer). But that was mostly wet, rather than dry (which I would guess you’d want when using it for knife sharpening). =)

Yes, wall of text, but that’s why we’re here. =)

15

I try to keep from whacking the edge as much as possible, and feel that it’s worth taking that extra second or so to get the stone square and lighten up pressure. Especially if you’re like me and have a tendency to get heavy handed, it helps break that habit by making you focus on getting everything just right and minding the pressure on the stone. I think of it kind of like hitting the slow mo button just before you reach the blade again… slow down for that second or two and right back to normal speed again. Sadly there are no cool Matrix effects when this happens :silly:

Random aside: I actually picked up that concept of identifying when to hit the brakes and when to swing back into full speed from a pistol instructor several years ago. Funny how down the road, the thing I learned doing speed reloads on a handgun applies just as well to knife sharpening… just in a slightly different way! B)

16

Makes sense. I’m trying to be careful about that contact, and not hammering the side of the blade. =)

17

I had a little more fun with the microscope just now and did a quick progression. Here is the blade after my well worn 1000# diamond plates:

The burr is very obvious even with alternating strokes and semi-light pressure. I could always stand to go a little lighter!

Here is the blade after 10 strokes with the 14 micron strops:

The burr is definitely getting smaller and giving us a more refined edge. That’s from only 10 strokes…

I went a step further and completed 50 strokes with the 14 micron strops. Here is the edge:

The edge is clearly a lot cleaner and the scratches are already being smoothed away. New, more shallow scratches are being cut in by the diamonds on the leather which is interesting because the diamonds in the paste are generally twice as large as the diamonds on the 1000# plates. The reason for the smaller scratches is most likely due to the pliability of the leather so that the diamonds in the paste are not making full contact and are not getting pressed in as deeply as are the diamonds on the steel backed plates. For that reason, it can be reasonable to go back to a coarser grit on your strops and still get a more refined edge/bevel.

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18

Clay,

Great to see. It is interesting how stropping produces such a different result that stone, but as you said, obviously leather is not stone. =)

It would be interesting to see how each strop material (cow, balsa, and roo), with the same compound, compared after a similar number of strokes. It also occurs to me that one could use something like glass, with the paste on it, and get something more inline with the stone (so, a real 14µ scratch pattern), no?

Just makes me wish my USB microscope would get that magnification… =P

19

A Theory of How the Wicked Edge Pastes WorkStaze, you might enjoy reading through this post: . It’s long but very detailed with some great microscopic images of edges to which I applied a bunch of different compounds and substrates.

[quote quote=“Staze” post=5662]Clay,

Great to see. It is interesting how stropping produces such a different result that stone, but as you said, obviously leather is not stone. =)

It would be interesting to see how each strop material (cow, balsa, and roo), with the same compound, compared after a similar number of strokes. It also occurs to me that one could use something like glass, with the paste on it, and get something more inline with the stone (so, a real 14µ scratch pattern), no?

Just makes me wish my USB microscope would get that magnification… =P[/quote]

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Clay,

Thanks! I’d read most of it before, but went back trough and red it all now. One thing I’d love to see, that would “prove” much of what jende and others are thinking, would be to try the pastes on a glass substrate. That should give the best results as far as true “sharpening” and no “burnishing”, I would think. And likewise, would give a good indication of concentration.

The stiction thing is something I actually experienced last night. I went through the 1000grit stones, then moved to the 5µ strops, and noticed they were really difficult to move, and seemed to leave behind (on the opposite side of the blade), small “shavings” (no better way to describe it, but I’m pretty sure they were extremely thin “sheets” of stropping paste). I THOUGHT I just needed more paste because the 3.5µ side didn’t have this issue, and was very smooth. Guess it turns out, stiction is generally a “good” thing.

Biggest issue I’ve had with stropping is that I always forget to set the angle 1° lower for stropping, and worse, forget to set it back when I go back to the stones. =P

Only other issue I’ve had is occasionally looking down to see if the thumbscrews have loosened on the angle bars.