Chosera 5000/10000 or super fine ceramic?

Legacy Forum Archive abrasives
1

It seems to me that the super fine has a few (minor) technical problems in manufacturing and are not available in any case. I would like a set of stones to bridge the gap between 1000 grit and micro fine ceramic stones to get a fine mirror finish. I noticed that the Chosera waterstone 5000 is the equivalent of a 1600 grit and presumably the 10000 would be something less than the courser side of the Micro fine if I understand correctly. I know the Chosera is double the price of the super fine and requires water when applying which seems a bit messy using the clamp since there is no way to catch the run off.

A couple of questions have occurred to me. Could the waterstone be used with out water using the guided rods and what is the effect of that? Why is the Chosera so much more expensive? Does this set of stones actually bridge the gap I described to make it easier to eliminate scratches from the diamond stones or is it just not a necessary step to get to the mirror polish using the 1000 diamond to the micro fine ceramic and then to stropping?

Thanks

Scott

2

Hi Scott,

do you already have 800/1000 diamond and micro ceramic? You get this progress if you buy Pro-Pack II, so it should be OK. According to this forum and Mark’s blog, coarse side of microceramics are quite agressive, more than 1200 ceramics.
I think that Choseras are more similar to micro than super ceramics, so have both is unnecessary. But if you want to experiment, you can:) The price is due to great quality of Choseras. But micro ceramics should be great quality too. Now I am waiting for them :slight_smile:

Enjoy!

Lukas

3

One thing to consider, before buying additional stones, is to give your diamond stones some time to break in. As shown in pictures in this article… http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118:i-just-got-my-wicked-edge-and-sharpened-my-first-knife-its-not-as-sharp-as-i-thought-it-would-be-whats-going-wrong&catid=31:general&Itemid=46 there can be quite a difference.

I would use them for a bit, see how things are looking, give your stones a chance to break in, your strops a chance to “season” (they usually start working better after a couple of rounds of adding paste), then consider what additional you might want to get.

4

So I did some googling and found these very interesting forum threads. First is on the properties of abrasives described;

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/776447-properties-of-abrasives-described?highlight=properties+abrasives+described

And this one, the grand unified grit chart, showing the relative progression of about every stone there is;

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart?highlight=the+grand+unified+grit+chart

So the answer to my own question seems to be in a perfect world where money grows on trees, it would be the WEPS diamond progression through 1000 grit, then the Chosera stones at 2000/3000 and then 5000/10,000 and then the micro fine ceramic (fine side only since the coarse side seems to be about the same as the Chosera 10,000 waterstone I believe and then on to the strops up to .025 microns.

This would give you a mirror polished edge that would cut the space time continuum. But we are talking about somewhere around $1500 or $1800 off the top of my head guesstimate.

I did read somewhere that using a waterstone without water gives the same results as a diamond stone, that is more scratchy than polishing and might lead to premature wear and possibly some cracking of the waterstone, so not a good idea.

And finally, it is ultimately the person who is sharpening and their skills and knowledge that determine the outcome. Even the finest of stones in the wrong hands will not give the extremely precise results of a skilled and knowledgeable person with even inferior stones.

I still have not been able to determine with all these charts and comparisons how the super fine stones in this progression might compare to having the Chosera stones between the 1000 grit WEPS diamond stone and the Micro Fine WEPS ceramic.

If you have some experience I would love to hear from you.

Thanks

5

I would love to hear from someone with real world experience using the Chosera waterstones. Is the mess worth the outcome and does it in practice actually give better results than the use of the diamonds to super fine ceramic to micro fine ceramic?

6

Superfine Ceramic Stones PackWe’ve added the Superfine stones back, they are here: . These stones are very different that what people are accustomed to when it comes to ceramic stones, but I absolutely love mine. They are really good at removing the scratches from the diamonds and are a great step after the 1000# diamonds. Whenever I want to clean up a blade and go for a perfect finish but don’t want to adjust my angles and prep waterstones, I use the Superfines.

7

Thanks for the update on those. I have ordered mine. I remember another post where you described some manufacturing difficulties with powdering or the edges cracking. Have those problems been fixed? I assume you have had a chance to use them. Is there a video showing the progression including these super fines from 1000 diamond to micro fine?

8

Thanks for the update on those. I have ordered mine. I remember another post where you described some manufacturing difficulties with powdering or the edges cracking. Have those problems been fixed? I assume you have had a chance to use them. Is there a video showing the progression including these super fines from 1000 diamond to micro fine?[/quote]

I haven’t done a video yet but the progression is fairly straightforward. The new formulation is a little harder and the stones I’ve tested worked great. I finished two big Victorinox Scimitars and a hunting knife with them yesterday and they came out great. There is a little bit of powder that comes off in the beginning but that stops fairly quickly. I like to use mine slightly moistened with soapy water. I keep a flat bowl on the far side of the sharpener with a little water in the bottom and a wet sponge that has a little dish soap on it. Periodically I lay my stones onto the sponge. If your bowl is the right height and has a low rim, it’s easy to do without taking the stones off of the rods. That said, it’s not necessary to use them wet, they work great dry too and I often use them that way.

9

So don’t take this wrong, I am not being sarcastic here, but with all that soaking and soaping and wetting, how is this different than the Chosera Waterstones.

I am trying to decide whether to add a 5000/10000 to my rotation perhaps after the super and before the micro or even to replace the micro and before the leathers. I had ruled it out after you mentioned that you used the Superfine when you didn’t want to prep and deal with the mess of using Chosera Stones.

Can you perhaps give a little more insight to the Chosera Stones verses the superfine ceramics please. Thanks.

Sorry to nag you, I know how busy you are, but this has been sort of nagging at me. I seem driven to have the best possible system despite the fact that I can now sharpen my knives enough to split atoms.

10

Also a quick follow up to my previous question. If the Super fine is still sloughing off some powder, doesn’t the water make the stone softer, which seems to me that it would have the effect of making it more powdery, especially when it dries?

11

So don’t take this wrong, I am not being sarcastic here, but with all that soaking and soaping and wetting, how is this different than the Chosera Waterstones.

I am trying to decide whether to add a 5000/10000 to my rotation perhaps after the super and before the micro or even to replace the micro and before the leathers. I had ruled it out after you mentioned that you used the Superfine when you didn’t want to prep and deal with the mess of using Chosera Stones.

Can you perhaps give a little more insight to the Chosera Stones verses the superfine ceramics please. Thanks.

Sorry to nag you, I know how busy you are, but this has been sort of nagging at me. I seem driven to have the best possible system despite the fact that I can now sharpen my knives enough to split atoms.[/quote]

It’s different in a couple of ways - wetting the Superfine stones is optional, just makes the edge a little more polished and keeps the stones a little cleaner, the wetting isn’t very involved and you don’t need to soak them, the Superfine stones are the same thickness as the rest of the kit so you don’t need to do much to manage the angles as you switch stones.

The Choseras are definitely awesome and create a beautiful finish, they just take a little more work to use. They are very lovely to use too, the feedback is wonderful.

12

I don’t think the powder coming off is actually stone wear… more like a ‘coating’ (for lack of a better word) that comes off, usually all on the first knife. After that, it’s a solid stone. Wetting them as Clay recommended doesn’t soften them. (Note that he’s just wetting, not soaking them).

13

Thanks guys for responding. I feel a bit obsessive, but in this forum I think I am in good company of people who understand that and may even be a bit sympathetic. I have ordered the super fine ceramic this morning and I’m looking forward to using it. I will suspend my sharpening until it arrives so I can use it on several of my knives to try it out. I guess once I get a chance to use it, I will know if I actually want to add the Chosera’s. But knowing me, I will probably add them eventually either way just to have and use them. I keep upgrading and resharpening my knives. By the time I am done, I will probably have whittled even my big belly knives down to a stiletto they are being so sharpened.

14

It seems to have the opposite effect; after using them slightly damp for a knife or two, there is no more sloughing of powder even when you use them dry. To answer my own curiosity about it, I just used them dry to touch up my current EDC (ZT 0560 Hinderer Collaboration) and they were great, no powder and quickly put a slightly cloudy mirror on the bevels. If I went on to strop the edge now it would polish up really quickly. These are brand new stones out of the current batch which I wanted to test against my tried and true set from a couple of years ago. My old, and still great set, are so old that the grit numbers aren’t even printed on the handles. Incidentally, I really enjoyed that I could refer back to my settings in the knife database and get exactly back to where I last left off with a newly updated machine. It only took a second to exactly match my bevels from a month or two ago.

15

Don’t do that… keep breaking in those diamonds!! :cheer: (if they need it).

16

I don’t think the powder coming off is actually stone wear… more like a ‘coating’ (for lack of a better word) that comes off, usually all on the first knife. After that, it’s a solid stone. Wetting them as Clay recommended doesn’t soften them. (Note that he’s just wetting, not soaking them).[/quote]

CBW is right. The manufacturer calls it the “kiln layer” and with this batch we had them use a process called ‘shot siding’ that vibrates the stones to remove some of the ‘kiln layer’ though there is still a small amount of powder on them that needs a sharpening or two to knock off. I think using the water helps to clean that layer off.

17

Thanks again. I can’t believe how addicting this sharpening is. I just find myself stroking and sharpening for the pleasure and relaxation of it. I know what that sounds like, but it really is very de-stressing and relaxing. I guess that is a benefit of being retired and having all the time in the world to play. But watching those scratches slowly and methodically disappear and change to a beautiful mirror finish and then feeling it cut through paper has become my new pastime. I even enjoy the sound of the knife cutting along the paper. I purchased a few cheap throw away knives to experiment with and break in my stones , but now that I have sharpened them so beautifully, I need to go to the hardware store to buy a good metal file to dull them all and start over again.

:slight_smile: :cheer: :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :ohmy: :lol: :woohoo:

18

Hey Scott, I will jump in with a question so you are not alone.

I am planning to get a WEPS PP I or II and still figuring out what else to get. I will get 1 or more strops to end with.

My question is what finishing stones should I get for after 1000# diamond to lead into stropping. I was thinking about some Choseras. Is the water a messy problem? Does water drip down to the joint or just straight down onto the base? (which I would drape a towel).

Sounds like with 2k/3k Choseras is fine enough to get to point of stropping.

Normally I would avoid anything messy but I am coming from the sharpmaker and don’t care for their ceramics. They work OK but have no feel or feedback. In the end the blade gets sharper than when I started but I can’t tell by stone feedback. Since I have heard good things about the Chosera I am leaning this way.

But I have also heard the WE ceramics are different than other ceramics.

The knives I sharpen are users so I am willing to spend 100’s of stokes per stone to get the perfect re-profile. But after that I would want something easy (2-4 stones then 2 strops) to touch up. When I am good I free hand strop everyday to really keep the edge up. Sometimes I don’t get around to it and I need more touch up work.

My goal is to have a mirror polish edge with no scratches visible with the naked eye. I will use a 10x to 30x loupe for inspection, but I don’t really care about perfection at 500x. I don’t have a microscope anyway.

19

I don’t think we are alone at all in this question. When they came out with the PP2 they offered progression from 100 to 1000 in diamond stones and it jumped all the way up to the micro ceramic before going into strops and nano paste. What I have found in my experimenting in the last couple of days since getting my PP2 is that the gap between 1000 and micro ceramic is rather a big one. I think you can reduce scratched from the 1000 with the micro but we are talking about a lot of strokes. both on the 1000 and on the ceramic. Now, it can be done and on my first serious knife which was a ZT 0560, I got my knife as sharp as I can imagine a knife could be and a “semi mirror” finish. Semi mirror, by my definition is reflective where you can see print when the blade is held perpendicular to print on paper and good light but not glossy smooth. There were still a great deal of very perceptible albeit faint scratches visible to my naked eye. Also remember that a few scratches make the blade cut better if they give some tooth to the edge also.

I think that with something to bridge the gap between the 1000 diamond stone and the micro ceramic to reduce scratches and allow the micro and strops to polish more I could have gotten a glossier shinier mirror finish easier. When I got my PP2 there was no super fine ceramic available because of production problems. I was just about ready to pull the trigger on the Choseras, but they are waterstones and do require some maintenance and adjustments not needed with the WEPS stones. Now, I think as of today the super fine has become available. Clay has said some nice things about it and on his recommendation, I have ordered it. I have some concerns based on a few comments in a couple of threads referring to it as “lightweight”, “powdery” saying the edges chip easily and according to some it is not nearly as smooth or dense as the micro fine ceramic, which I totally love.

I hope to get it by this weekend, and will give it a good workout. If it doesn’t bridge the gap well, I will go to the Chosera, but for the cost and mess of using water stones, I wanted to give the ceramic a chance. I do hope the super is actually super. It would be nice to see a youtube on the super, but I have not found any, probably because it hasn’t been very available . There are some decent Youtubes on the WE Chosera waterstones if you look around.

They do need to soak and remain wet while in use and they are thicker so the angle changes by about 2 degrees on each side when you go from WE stones to Choseras, but the amount of dripping is pretty minimal depending on which stones you are looking at. Also it is not clear to me which stones are the right ones to bridge the gap. The 2000/3000 falls right in line with the progression from the 1000 but still leaves a noticeable gap between the 3000 and the micro which is about equal to the 10000 chosera stone. So the 5000/10000 stone my be too fine to bridge the gap by itself and the 2000/3000 may not work by itself. I don’t know from personal use and I must say, there is a lot I don’t know about sharpening in general. In a perfect world where money grows on trees, I would probably like to have both of the mentioned stone sets which would make the super obsolete. I don’t mind the extra work since I sharpen for the fun of sharpening and I am already into this whole thing by way over a $1000 already. I am embarrassed to tell anyone how much I have spent actually considering I do not derive any income or really need a mirror shine on my knives.

Anyone reading this hopefully with some personal experience, please jump in, I would love to hear from you.

20

First, check out these links:
http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/wicked-edge-weps-stock-diamond-ceramic-microscopic-progression/

http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/wicked-edge-weps-chosera-stone-microscopic-progression/

http://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/wicked-edge-weps-shapton-pro-stone-microscopic-progression/

They are good accounts of three WEPS progressions using different stones. Tom Blodgett also does a real good job of talking about how the different grits in the progressions work.

So, Scott asked for specific experience with the Chosera stones and how the 500/10K might fit into his progression. I have all of the Choseras that WEPS offers. 400/600 800/1000 2000/3000 and 5000/10K. I do not have any of the WEPS ceramics (yet).

In most cases i use the WEPS diamonds, then “go back” to the 600 choseras and through the entire progression form there. If I am doing more of a utility edge, I go up to the Cosera 1000 or maybe the 2000 and strop form there. Sometimes I stop stropping with 6/3 micron paste (using DMY paste at the moment). On a real OCD effort I will got through the 10K chosera and stop down to 0.025 micron CBN on nanocloth.

I can get what most people would consider to be a mirror edge just going up through the 2000 grit Chosera stones and stropping. This would not make much sense if we only looked at the size of the grit claimed for the Choseras. The unified grit chart says that the 1000 grit diamonds are finer than the 1K chosera grit.

Bottom line is that there are many factors that influence the results on steel other than grit size. Tom talks about this in his progressions.

I can say that I have been very happy woith the results as far as edge refinement as well as impressive relfctivity after going up through the Chosera progression to 10K. Again I can’t compare the ultrafine cermics, but I do have the 15K Shapton stones as well as 12K SuperStones. These should be in the grit range of the cermics. Neither give visibly as pretty an edge as the choseras. As to edge refinement, I don’t have the magnification to see it, and can’t really detect the difference in sharpness with the tests that I use.

When you ask about getting an edge with no visible scratches at 30X, I can just tell you that I have never done that. I have got to maybe 90% scratch free after several hours and hundreds of strokes at each grit. I have gotten to where it is real dificult to see any scratches lokking at 90 degrees to the bevel, but shining a light along the edge using magnification, there are scratches. This, of course, pisses me of greatly!
:slight_smile:

What to take away from this? You can’t make decisions on what will work for you by looking at grit sizes. The binder of the stone, the grit concentration, the release of the abrasive, the friability of the abrasive, the creation of “mud”… all add up to make more difference than just advertised grit size.

As to the question fo using waterstones dry… DON’T!. Thye are desinged to be used wet and will only work properly whe used wet. I even use the Shaptons and Naniwa SS stones wet, even though they are “splash and go” stones… I splash them regularly. Don’t get me wrong, they do not have to be used dripping, running, sopping wet. You don’t have to use the WEPS in a tub or tray. I soak the stones that require it for 10 minutes or so, the splash and go stones for 5 minutes. By the time they are on the WEPS and arms are adjusted they do not really drip. About every 25 or 30 strokes I spritz them with a couple of drops of water. Cleanup is a matter of running some water over them while rubbing them against each other for a few strokes, then letting them dry. The mess and additional work in doing this is minimal. The results are well worth it.

BTW, I check and adjust the angles with the cube to within .1 degree at every stone change. Resetting for the Choseras is not a big deal to me. With the new arms, I can do it without even moving the slider on the base bar… If you go with the entire chosera progression, you make significant adjustments only once after the diamonds and when going back to the strops.

If your can afford a set or two of the Chosera stones, I would reccomend that you try them!
(And all of the ceramics, of course).

I tend to think, and maybe it is just justification fo buying all of this sharpening stuff, that if you have more options and take the time to experiment with them, you will be more likely to hit upon that perfect combination for each and every knife in your collection… I bet that collection will grow too..
:slight_smile:
Rabbit hole here we go!

Phil