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Super and Micro ceramics progression

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  • #6716
    Scott
    Participant
    • Topics: 27
    • Replies: 121

    In my opinion, it is all these variables and inconsistencies that make knife sharpening so interesting and so much fun. If it was easy, there would be a simple inexpensive machine with minimal learning curve that would do it for you and anyone could do it. 🙂

    But I don’t think that is happening (yet).

    #6720
    Lukas Pop
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 109

    In my opinion, it is all these variables and inconsistencies that make knife sharpening so interesting and so much fun. If it was easy, there would be a simple inexpensive machine with minimal learning curve that would do it for you and anyone could do it. 🙂

    But I don’t think that is happening (yet).

    I think it is happening if you have enough money to regard WEPS as inexpensive 🙂 My second knife on WEPS and all the following was very sharp, so results are very consistent and learning curve minimal (provided I don’t count time I read this forum before purchasing WEPS). The challenge starts when you want to achieve the sharpest edge possible or think how to keep your working knives superbly sharp with minimal effort. It is true art and science 🙂

    #6721
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Lukas,
    It appears that you had the answer to your original question before you asked it ???

    [“Improve” means two things for me:
    1. “Sharpness” – how well the edge can do some push – cutting tests (push cutting paper, shave hair, whittle hair)
    2.”Polish” – how clear is mirror reflection from the edge.
    Now I use progression 100-1000 diamonds < 1200 and 1600 super ceramics < 5 and 3.5 um leather strops. And I think that each step improves both sharpness and polish..

    OK, I agree and going further with the 1.4 micron and 0.6 micron ceramics will get you more polish. Going further with the strops, will get you a finer more reflective and more refined for push cutting edge. You can be happy with what you have, of course, but better tools with a controlled angle system will get closer to what you define as your goal. Because of the philosophy that goes into designing the Chosera stones, you will get more polish if you use them, and likely more edge refinement. I have used them, photographed the edge at 400X and done every cut testing procedure that I know. From experience, I can answer your original question, yes the Choseras will give you an improved edge from what you are using now. I have not exhaustively used or tested the Microfine ceramics yet, (at least I have used them) but I can say with a high level of confidence that they also would help you improve your edges…by your definition.

    Perhaps you might check out this thread:
    http://wickededgeusa.com/index.phpoption=com_kunena&func=view&catid=14&id=4555&limit=10&limitstart=20&Itemid=63

    The micrographs don't lie. Check the difference between the four ceramics in their scratch pattern

    [/

    [But strops are soft, and therefore not so "precise" as stones, so stropping can lead to rounding the edge, which reduces sharpness. So I recommend to progress to the finest stone available, and then you will need less strokes with strops..


    If stropping is done correctly, as the WEPS allows you to do (with the proper technique), you will not "round" the edge. Many of the micrographs show a small bit of convexing of the shoulder before the edge, not a rounded edge of the edge. The fact is that quite often a well stropped edge will be sharper, by any cutting test, than one that is not stropped. Certainly (see below) the edge will be "improved" by your definition after stropping.

    I see the same statement many many times all over the Internet about rounding the edge by stropping. Again, if done properly, I just don't agree with it… nor do thousands of straight razor users…
    🙂

    [If I look at pictures at Grits Comparison Chart http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74:grits-comparison-chart-for-the-wicked-edge-sharpener&catid=31:general&Itemid=46 , I can't say that the edge after 0.25 um diamond spray looks better than after 5 um diamond paste. So It doesn't seem to me that stropping with many different sizes of diamonds pastes and sprays has any visible effect.

    I mentioned going to 0.025 …on nanocloth. At that level there is a huge difference. Even at 0.5 micron there is a big difference …maybe not visibly, but certainly with magnification…and certainly in cutting tests!

    Take a look at this thread :
    http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.phpoption=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&limit=10&limitstart=110&Itemid=63

    Lots of good micrographs and info. You will see the scratch patterns from many of the stones, including the superfine ceramics and the 10K Choseras, and many types of strops. You can draw you own conclusions, but there is clear data showing there are big differences between 5 micron and 0.25 micron materials. These photos are much more revealing than the small ones on the WEPS grit chart. Look

    Particularly at post 2642 copied below:

    For each stage in the latest progression, I repeated the same tests – hanging hair test (HHT) and copy paper push cut (CPPC). Below are the results, in order of the progressions:
    Medium HHT CPPC
    1600# Ceramic Fail Pass, slight fraying of the edges
    5k Chosera Fail Pass, slight fraying of the edges
    10k Chosera Fail Pass, very smooth cut
    1um Diamond on Balsa Fail Pass, very smooth cut
    .5um Diamond on Balsa Fail Pass, very smooth cut
    .25um Diamond on Horsebutt (Split) Fail Pass, very smooth cut
    .125um Diamond on Horsebutt (Split) Fail Pass, very smooth cut
    Plain Horsebutt (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
    .5um Diamond on Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
    Plain Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut
    .125um CBN on Cow Leather (Top) Pass Pass, very smooth cut

    Keep going to the end and check out the edges obtained using some of the diamond sprays and Kangaroo and Nanocloth. If you are not very impressed by what these media did after the stones, I will be very surprised.

    [It seems that grit sizes of 1200 super, 1600 super and coarse micro are very similar, so I think that using only coarse micro can't take distinctly more time than all of them.

    The Microfine coarse is half the grit size of the Fine Superfine ceramic 1.4 micron versus 2.85 microns. When we are getting to this level of grit size, this is significant. It will save time in scratch removal and refine the edge!

    [Then I think there are three "similar fine" stones: fine micro ceramics, 10K Choseras and 15K Shaptons. I haven't experience with either, but according other people on this forum it seems to me that:
    1. Waterstones have better "feedback" during sharpening
    2. Choseras are the most messy, micro the least
    3. Choseras produce the best polish, polish of Shaptons and micro ceramics is similar
    4. All three stones produce similar sharpness
    5. Micro ceramics are the least expensive, then Choseras, then Shaptons (I take 5K + 15 K Shaptons + blank paddles, this combination should be similar to micro ceramics set)
    So micro ceramics look quite fine for me, but it depends what your preferences are.

    Number 1 I agree with. Number 2 may be true, but the mess it truly minimal when used per Tom's suggestions. Number 3, well the Choseras and the Superstones do polish better than the Shaptons. So far, I don't know that anyone has done the comparison between the Ceramics and Shaptons in an exhaustive manner. I do have the 5K and 15K Shaptons as well as all of the others you mention. One day when I have time I will try a direct comparison. Number 4, well I am not sure what similar means. So far, I like the edge with the Choseras, but if I am going to 10K, I usually do not stop there.

    Number 5, Absolutely. The Microfine ceramics are a heck of a deal. If you get them, I think they will "improve" your edges. Get the Choseras and they will "improve" your edges. Get some of the Kangaroo and Nanocloth strops and sub micron "premium" (HA or Ken Schwartz) sprays and they will "improve" your edge. Now this is by your definition. The question for most people is whether they actually need this level of "improvement". First tie wrap you struggle to cut through will ruin all of that work…
    🙂

    [This is how I understand different abrasives now 🙂

    We all have lots to learn. I think I can read and sharpen for the rest of my life and will never come anywhere close to knowing it all!

    #6725
    Scott
    Participant
    • Topics: 27
    • Replies: 121

    We all have lots to learn. I think I can read and sharpen for the rest of my life and will never come anywhere close to knowing it all!

    That’s what I was trying to say

    #6736
    Chris
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 351

    One for Phil.

    When you break up a quote, leave the bracket out here.
    The one before the “T”. (arrow)

    Apologies for the off-topic.

    #6749
    Lukas Pop
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 109

    Thank you Phil,

    your experiences seem to be very useful 🙂 It looks that I underestimated imporance of different stroping abrasives, but you can’t buy Kangaroo and Nanocloth strops and HA and KS diamond sprays in Europe and postage from USA is bloody expensive 🙁

    I can’t open your links, can you check it please?

    The Microfine coarse is half the grit size of the Fine Superfine ceramic 1.4 micron versus 2.85 microns. When we are getting to this level of grit size, this is significant. It will save time in scratch removal and refine the edge!

    I think that grit size comparison between different abrasives is tricky, and I heard several times that the Microfine coarse is coarser than you can deduce from the value 1.4 micron. Also 10K Choseras have grit size 1.74 micron, it is about three time as much as fine Microceramics (0.6 micron), and it doesn’t seem that the edge after fine Microceramics are significantly more refined than after 10K Choseras. You have both, so you can confirm 🙂

    #6758
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    http://wickededgeusa.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wicked_Edge_New_User_Info

    Above has links and descriptions for all of the things I am posting. Check the New User Info page. It has lots of good info. If you can think of anything else that might fit there… or anywhere on the WIKI, please let us know.

    Unfortunately is seems as though when one goes to the WIKI and then to a linked page, then copies the link of that page from the adress bar, it does not work.

    Here are the links that I posted and one more

    Stock Stone Strop progression, lots of Pics and links to previous posts with good info on the progressions 100 through 600 and diamond pastes. Keep in mind the scale here when you look at some of the other threads. Clay changed cameras at least three times. With the new camera he did a bunch of photos at 800X before getting his unit to go to 2500.

    http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=6&id=1824&Itemid=63

    This next one is where.. on pages 8 through 10 or so we get into the Kangaroo and Nano cloths with some submicrom sprays and where the table of results that I posted last night is. Everyone immediately wanted those strops. Pretty amazing stuff!!

    A theory of how the WE diamond pastes work
    http://www.wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=2399&Itemid=63

    The next one, well the title says it all. In this one Clay illustrates what I consider to be a convex micro bevel after stropping. I would really like him to do some edge on shots after the stropping. I tend to think that this will show a thin line at the edge of the edge, rather than a rounded surface. I think that, even if the edge were sligthly rounded, it would be a micron range sort of radius, as stropped knives and razors have been shown over and over again to cut some things better after that process. Remember these are at 800X, previous photos have been at either 400X or 525X IIRC.

    Ascending Stone Progression at 800x
    http://wickededgeusa.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=14&id=4555&Itemid=63#4560

    Enjoy

    Phil

    #6771
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Thank you Phil,
    I think that grit size comparison between different abrasives is tricky, and I heard several times that the Microfine coarse is coarser than you can deduce from the value 1.4 micron. Also 10K Choseras have grit size 1.74 micron, it is about three time as much as fine Microceramics (0.6 micron), and it doesn’t seem that the edge after fine Microceramics are significantly more refined than after 10K Choseras. You have both, so you can confirm 🙂

    Lukas,
    I could not agree more, and I have said as much here many times(grit is not always just grit).
    I read Clay’s post about lapping the coarse microfine stones before use. I did that immediately. I know some people were plugging these stones into their rotation after the 1200 ceramics. After lapping with first a coarse DMT plate to flatten them then a fine one to texture the stones. I definitely felt they fit after the 1600 grit Ceramics. He has some photos after lapping that illustrate this well. I found this a bit curious as I think of Ceramic materials as being generally homogenous. Apparently in firing the Ceramic stones there can be effects at the surface that change the properties somewhat.

    That said, there are huge differences in stone types at the edge, regardless of them having equivalent grit sizes. The binder of a stone, how fast it releases abrasive, the friability of the abrasive and many other factors come into play. I would not expect the results from something like a Shapton stone to be very close to a ceramic stone of any grit. Ceramics have no binder really and release no abrasives (except maybe when new and the “kiln” layer is being removed :)). In other words they are not much like any manufactured or natural stone. You will see, however, in Clay’s pictures using the lapped coarse Mcrofine stone that there is a nice and pretty regular reduction is scratch size moving from the 1600>1200>Coarse MF>Fine MF.

    Your original question about getting “improvement” using the Fine MF after the 10K Chosera stone…
    I think it is one of those that we need to examine at the microscopic level. I can check it out one day soon to give my impressions based on sharpness tests (which are not all that definitive) but I am limited in what I can see at the edge with the equipment that I have. I would guess that it will be very close. I would say that the edge will (from direct comparison) not be as reflective (read pretty:)) just using the Fine MF, and likely would get a bit duller if it is used after the Chosera. Judging by what people generally call a mirror edge, I am sure it would still fit that description. Of course thsi is speculation based on one knife and no micrographs… As Mark said, this is difficult to answer…until we do some more work on that specific subject.

    Phil

    #6793
    Phil Pasteur
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
    • Replies: 943

    Chris…
    thanks.
    I needed that. I was actually going to ask the question one day.
    The reason I used color was because I couldn’t get the quotes to work right (I guess that was obvious to you).

    Many forums allow easy multiple quoting. Do you have any neat tricks to do that here?
    Or must it be a manual process?

    Phil

    One for Phil.

    When you break up a quote, leave the bracket out here.
    The one before the “T”. (arrow)

    Apologies for the off-topic.

    #6797
    Chris
    Participant
    • Topics: 7
    • Replies: 351

    Sorry Phil, my experience comes from posting only.
    The place I haunt is all hand made by the owner of the site, we are spoilt.

    I’m sure the WebMan can tell us what is possible.

    I’ve never shot so many arrows in all directions as I have today. 😉
    Or been off-topic so much.
    Apologies to all!

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