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Re: the new 2200/3000 stones?

Recent Forums Main Forum Techniques and Sharpening Strategies Abrasives Re: the new 2200/3000 stones?

This topic contains 37 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Brewbear 07/04/2019 at 10:17 am.

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  • #50699

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    I ordered a set a few days ago.  I currently use the 1500 followed by 6, 3 and 1 DLF’s then I use mostly the Nano strops with .50 and .25 diamond sprays on them.

    With these newly introduced grits where would the 2200/3000 stones fall in my progression?  I don’t want to re-introduce coarser scratches.

    I’m excited with these new grits as I was never a fan of going the ceramic route with their longer break in periods and the potential breakage of them.  My favorite stone is the 1500, so I’m hoping the new 2200/3000 will fit into my progression and maybe even eliminate some of the grits/DLFs I’m currently using.

    Can these new stones eliminate any of the abrasives in my progression noted above to save me time?

    Where would ceramics (if I did own two sets of ceramics) the 1200/1600 grit and the 1.4 mu/1.6mu?  I might pick them up someday used as a $215 investment is steep considering I might not like them.  I did originally buy those sets when I was starting my system up, but returned them unopened after reading more about them and went the DLF route.

    I ask because I’m always up for shortening my progression routine.

    Thx

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    #50700

    Brewbear
    Participant
    • Topics: 6
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    I had asked a similar question in a different thread, but so far I had no answers. My thinking was to use the 1500/2200 follower by the 3000/glass platen. I’m not sure which DLF to use on the glass platen tho since I’m not versed in the grit sizes. Currently I’m using a 1500/6 micron DLF as my last step.

    #50707

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1855

    I will attempt to answer your questions to where these stones fit in the progression:

    It is our nature to try to place things in a seemingly orderly arrangement.  Since we stacked blocks as children one on top of the other.   I posted previously, it is not a simple thing to arrange different grit mediums together in an orderly systematic array.  This has been problematic and has been attempted with  several different grit comparison charts including a unified grit chart.

    Different methods of comparison are utilized from visual,  to physical, to scientific.  Whether we consider the appearance of the scratch width, depth and spacing or the particle size creating the scratches it is difficult to place different mediums all together in a single orderly array that is agreeable to all.

    It is too subjective.  There is also a natural tendency to want to stack all of our blocks, so to speak, in one big continuous tall stack.  These grits of different mediums are different and all of them do not work together. You have to pick and choose, what to use, based on the results you desire.  The grit designations hold as a pretty good guide as long as we stay within the same abrasive mediums.  It’s when we try to mix and match that it becomes more subjective and difficult to place them in order.

    I suggest you use the grits or described particle sizes,  strictly as a guide.  This ordering process becomes more intuitive.  You have to try what seems logical to you.  Then make your observations and adjust your results to your liking.  To use a pun, the orders are not “set in stone”.

    Different stone sequences work for different expected outcomes.  The “art” of knife sharpening is knowing which sequence to utilize when.  To achieve the results your working towards.  This is an experiential process.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #50708

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    Thanks for this response Marc.  I had already dropped a PM earlier today to Clay for his thoughts on where these new stone’s might be used in the scheme of at least my own abrasive progression.  Since he is the marketer of these new grits it will be interesting to see what his thoughts are too.

    Of course once I start using them I’ll be able to tell the size of the scratches.  I’d like to phase out the DLF’s as I find they don’t last that long and contaminate easily.  I can be progressing and seeing a very clear edge developing  and then impart deeper scratches again from the DLF’s.  This is why I had my thoughts of maybe picking up the two sets of ceramics again and not using any DLF’s.  This is why I ordered the 2200/3000 grit.  They are probably to new to see them being used in a Youtube vid or some user reviews.

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    #50709

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1855

    I will add this,  when transitioning from one abrasive grit medium to the next, through experience, I have found it’s helpful yielding better results, to utilize a several grit backstep or overlap.  The overlap though seemingly a redundant effort, appears to better blend and remove the previous scratch patterns and give a better, cleaner, sharp and polished final result.

    A fuller more comprehensive strop progression, again, although seemingly redundant helps, just the same.  Maybe even more so, for the final sharpness.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #50710

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    Thanks.  Makes sense.  From your first comment above seems to me what you describe is a “map”.  Just like driving from point A to point B I know there can be many routes to get to my final destination and all these abrasives Clay sells are the many routes to a super sharp edge.  I didn’t want to overlap with what I’m doing now with the addition of these new stones to my collection and even better, if I could eliminate some abrasives to speed things up for me.

    Yes, with some abrasive changes I might need to back up to blend the change.  I’ve read that before from you.  These stones are new and I don’t know the size of the scratches they will leave.  Maybe others can compare say chosera stones as I noticed they have high numbers out to 10,000.

    Thats why I asked where these new grits would fit into how “I” am currently using his product line of various abrasives to reach my goal of mirrored bevels and super sharp edges on my folders.  I’m not as fussy with my kitchen knives and don’t spend a lot of time when progressing through.  I’d actually like to stop at 800/1000 so as not to have an edge that is so thin, it easily rolls in too short a time using them. I’m leaning now towards more of a working edges for my kitchen knives.

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    #50711

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    Good recent thread on DLF vs ceramics:

    Micro Fine Ceramics vs Diamond Lapping Films

    I wonder if the 2200/3000 would do well after the 1500’s and then onto stropping dropping the DLF’s.  Maybe use the micro ceramics but I’m not a 50 stroke per  side kinda guy!

    Be interesting to see what type of scratches these new stones impart as without the DLF’s there would be no blending of different abrasives. Lets see when Clay chimes in what he can add.

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    #50712

    Frustrated inc
    Participant
    • Topics: 5
    • Replies: 27

    I was thinking I would use them after my 1500 and before the ceramics and lapping films. I know the grits are finer than the ceramics grits are but the ceramic and lapping films are a softer medium. If you look at the wicked edge grit progression chart it tends to keep the mediums together more so than the grits.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #50715

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    Thanks.  I’ll check that chart you mentioned.

    #50722

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 276

    Update: I did pick up a set of the micro fine ceramic stones 1.4mu/.6mu.

    Ill see if I can work my progression … 1500>2200/3000>microfine ceramic 1.4/.6>Nano strops with .5/.25  diamond spray.

    I expect to see a slowing of my time spent once I reach the ceramic stones, but I might make some of that time up when I  eliminate the time I was spending with the 3 DLF’s 6, 3 and 1.

    I still might have to bring some of the DLF’s back into play maybe for dropping back to blend in the changes with these various abrasives.

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    #50723

    Organic
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
    • Replies: 850

    I suspect that your progression with the diamond lapping films is going to be a faster way to get a mirror edge than the progression with the ceramic stones. I will be interested to hear whether or not my prediction matches your experience.

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    #50726

    airscapes
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
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    How long does it take to beak in the ceramic stones.. Thought I read someone post that it tool substantially longer the diamond stones?

    #50730

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    How long does it take to beak in the ceramic stones.. Thought I read someone post that it tool substantially longer the diamond stones?

    Airscapes.   I googled this for you as I had a similar question on the cermics break in period.   A few members commented in this thread.  And clay too.  Seems the consensus is ceramics take as long as diamond stones to break in.  Maybe 30 knives or so.  Also DON’T BE TEMPTED to “lap them” meaning rub them with a diamond stone to speed up the break in.  What this will do is impart the grit scratches from the diamond stone (see TC Meyer’s comment post #38480).

    It also mentions (post #38483) some will rub the same grit say the ceramic 0.6 to the ceramic 0.6 to remove the white film they come with.  I MYSELF WILL NOT DO THIS.  My plan is to break them in using first my old kitchen knife set starting with the the 1500 or my new 2200/3000 to freshen the edge and then use the microfine ceramics that will be at my house shortly.

    My opinion on rubbing together to remove film is if Clay wanted us to do it I would think he would put a instructional note in the box with the ceramics to first rub them together to remove the film first.  No note, no rub!

    https://knife.wickededgeusa.com/forums/topic/ceramic-stonesupdated-grit-chart/

    Another thing I’m not looking forward to is having to replce my 100 diamond stones.  I know the have upwards of 150 knives done on them.  I’ve read that some users can get 300-400 knives with a set of stones.  Yet, since most of my folders are super steels I think I’ve worn them down prematurely because it takes so damn long to raise initial burrs now.  After 45 min. I get bored and drop down to the 80’s which really spped the burring up but then I’m endanger of micro chipping these brittle steels.

    Clay should offer a service where you could send your stones into WE and they could suggest how worn down they are.  Or maybe post pics on their grit charts of stones in various stages of wearing down and the point where they need to be replenished that we could gauge with a 10x loupe.

    Update: regarding how long coarse stones last:

    https://support.wickededgeusa.com/portal/kb/articles/how-often-do-you-need-to-replace-the-stones-is-there-a-certain-number-of-knifes-that-it-will-do

     

    #50731

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    Stone sets arrived this AM.  The 2200/3000 diamond and the 0.6u/1.4u ceramics.  The note that comes in the ceramic box is attached:

    Attachments:
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    #50733

    Organic
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
    • Replies: 850

    I don’t recall getting that note with my set of ceramic stones. That must be a recent addition to the packaging.

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