Quitting sharpening for a restaurant – what should

[Mark76]

As some of you may know, I’m sharpening knives for a restaurant in my city. I started it off about 1.5 years ago since I loved (and still love) sharpening with my WEPS and I wanted to know how I could contribute to a good restaurant. During this period the restaurant obtained its second Michelin start (not due to me 🙂 ) and they’re really well regarded. Before they had a shitty knife sharpening service and now they get great edges on their knives exactly according their specs (which are highly personal and differ per cook).

But as much as I love sharpening, sharpening a lot of knives every two weeks has become a bit of a chore for me. It’s not the sharpening itself, which I still love. One of the great things of the WEPS is that resharpening a knife is a breeze. You just need to record the settings you originally used; the next time you use the same settings and in one or a few minutes you’ve got this knife back to its original sharpness. But after 1.5 years I don’t want to be bound to home every other weekend anymore and I want to be able to do other things as well. So in a short while I’ll quit sharpening for this restaurant.

I’ve been wondering what to advise them as to how to go on. I wouldn’t like them to go back to their original sharpening service and nor would they. Obviously my first advise would be (and has been) to get a WEPS themselves. They’ve seen the results which they were all very happy with. But for some reason the cooks seem to regard knife sharpening below their standing. (I’ve never told them, but if I need to break this argument, I’ll tell them that their knives have been sharpened for the last 1.5 years by someone with a Ph.D. 🙂 ).

But suppose I don’t get them to sharpen their own knives with a WEPS. What would then be the options?

– One of the shitty “professional” knives sharpers around. I will wholeheartedly discourage them to do this
– Sharpen their own knives using a more labour-intensive device than the WEPS (plain stones or the Edge Pro). Definitely not an option, since they think sharpening on a WEPS is already too much work.
– A simple belt grinder. I’ve recently watched a few vids on the Ken Onion Worksharp sharpener. I’ve never tried this device, but the reviews I read are generally pretty good. It involves very little work for the cooks and also seems reasonably fool-proof with the angle guide it has.

As you may guess, my impression is that buying a simple and user-friendly belt grinder might be the best option for them. What do you guys think?

And when we’re talking such belt grinders, is the Ken Onion Worksharp sharpener a serious option? Is it strong enough? And user-friendly enough? (It seems to have an angle guide.) I’m now focusing on this Worksharp device, but if you know of any better simple and affordable belt grinder just for sharpening (not for making knives), please let me know.

This has been a long post, but it is important for me to finish my work well and to make sure this restaurant also has well-sharpened knives also in the future. I’m really interested in your opinions.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[wickededge]

Mark,

They’re lucky to have had you all this time. Of course I’d recommend one of our Professional/Commercial units first 🙂 other than that, I’m not sure. The Worksharp is a cool machine but has a couple of issues:

1. The last 1/4″-1/2″ of the blade at the heel doesn’t get sharpened.
2. It’s very difficult to not round the tip of the blade.
3. It takes a lot of metal with each sharpening.

I don’t mean to knock the Worksharp, it is a cool machine and they are good people. I’ve met them several times and really liked them. I even have a Worksharp but I wouldn’t use it on my nicer knives, really just on tools like lawnmower blades, pruners etc….

-Clay

[tuffy braithwaite]

As some of you may know, I’m sharpening knives for a restaurant in my city. I started it off about 1.5 years ago since I loved (and still love) sharpening with my WEPS and I wanted to know how I could contribute to a good restaurant. During this period the restaurant obtained its second Michelin start (not due to me 🙂 ) and they’re really well regarded. Before they had a shitty knife sharpening service and now they get great edges on their knives exactly according their specs (which are highly personal and differ per cook).

But as much as I love sharpening, sharpening a lot of knives every two weeks has become a bit of a chore for me. It’s not the sharpening itself, which I still love. One of the great things of the WEPS is that resharpening a knife is a breeze. You just need to record the settings you originally used; the next time you use the same settings and in one or a few minutes you’ve got this knife back to its original sharpness. But after 1.5 years I don’t want to be bound to home every other weekend anymore and I want to be able to do other things as well. So in a short while I’ll quit sharpening for this restaurant.

I’ve been wondering what to advise them as to how to go on. I wouldn’t like them to go back to their original sharpening service and nor would they. Obviously my first advise would be (and has been) to get a WEPS themselves. They’ve seen the results which they were all very happy with. But for some reason the cooks seem to regard knife sharpening below their standing. (I’ve never told them, but if I need to break this argument, I’ll tell them that their knives have been sharpened for the last 1.5 years by someone with a Ph.D. 🙂 ).

But suppose I don’t get them to sharpen their own knives with a WEPS. What would then be the options?

– One of the shitty “professional” knives sharpers around. I will wholeheartedly discourage them to do this
– Sharpen their own knives using a more labour-intensive device than the WEPS (plain stones or the Edge Pro). Definitely not an option, since they think sharpening on a WEPS is already too much work.
– A simple belt grinder. I’ve recently watched a few vids on the Ken Onion Worksharp sharpener. I’ve never tried this device, but the reviews I read are generally pretty good. It involves very little work for the cooks and also seems reasonably fool-proof with the angle guide it has.

As you may guess, my impression is that buying a simple and user-friendly belt grinder might be the best option for them. What do you guys think?

And when we’re talking such belt grinders, is the Ken Onion Worksharp sharpener a serious option? Is it strong enough? And user-friendly enough? (It seems to have an angle guide.) I’m now focusing on this Worksharp device, but if you know of any better simple and affordable belt grinder just for sharpening (not for making knives), please let me know.

This has been a long post, but it is important for me to finish my work well and to make sure this restaurant also has well-sharpened knives also in the future. I’m really interested in your opinions.

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tell them to look at this for their blades
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http://www.truhone.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3

[Mark76]

Thanks, guys.

Clay, I probably won’t seriously recommend them to get a belt grinder, but the reason I mentioned the Worksharp is that this one has variable speed control, which makes it slightly more difficult to screw up your edges (if you know how to use it). But the truth is that if they don’t want to use a WEPS themselves the question is not which option is best for them, but which option is less bad than others.

But next time I go there, I’ll show them a video of the professional WEPS. I’m curious what their reaction will be.

Tuffy, are you serious about that pull-through sharpener? I’ve owned more than one in the past and can only say that since then I’ve refered to the electric ones as knife-destroyers. I think it was Michiel who published some microscope-photographs that showed that this name is not an exaggeration. (Some of the manual ones are less bad. I’ve used one that is recommended for Global knives which has “stones” of three different grits. I’d rate that one at about the same level as the Spyderco Sharpmaker.) What makes this one different? Its price suggests a lot. But it has only one grit level?

Leo Barr, I don’t know if you’re reading this, but I think you had a similar problem some time ago when you were moving back to the UK. What did you recommend your customers in the end? And what did they do?

The real problem is that all of the “professional” sharpening services I know in my area are simply not professional. The good news is that when I realized this, a couple of years ago, I got a WEPS. I didn’t imagine back then that I’d like sharpening so much 🙂 .

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Mark76]

And what I forgot to mention: I do have an influence on this restaurant when it comes to knives.

Some time ago they wanted new knives for their guests, particularly to cut meat, and I’ve been trying to convince them they should get Laguiole knives. In the end they decided this would be too expensive (a good Laguiole knife costs $150), but now they’ve decided on another type of French knives: Opinel. A lot cheaper and perhaps less refined. But a great cutter, and that’s what it is about as far as I am concerned.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Leo Barr]

When I left Mallorca I wanted to suggest a sharpener that was not too destructive and was reasonable I would possible suggest this for them and perhaps agree to do their knives perhaps once or twice a year for the sake of reprofiling.
I presented this question on various forums and this was suggested by a couple of people. I think most chefs are not prepared to use a WEPS if they are then they already will be most seem to reserve their energies only for food preparation.

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[Geocyclist]

Some random thoughts in no particular order.

1. Train someone else on WEPS and hand them the business. (Good job for a student)
2. Have the restaurant buy a WEPS and train the dishwasher or sous chef.
3. I would tell them you are a professional and only use the best. Therefore you can’t recommend a pull through sharpener as your standards are too high. 😉

[Chad Headlee]

I have the Ken Onion WorkSharp. I bought it before I purchased the WE. I love the WSKO, but I won’t use it on any of my nicer knives. More and more, my knives are becoming “nicer” and I may look to sell the WS soon.

I think its robust enough for a kitchen to use on a regular basis, but it produces a lot of dust and shavings both from the blade and the belt. The angle guide is far from ‘foolproof’ as it doesn’t support the blade for its entire length. I actually get much better results when I don’t use the guide, but again, it may be “good enough” for a kitchen.

I can produce shaving sharp results with the WSKO but like anything, there is a learning curve. I’m not convinced it’s the right machine for a restaurant but I suppose it’s an option. It is faster than the WE but I’d agree with just about everything already stated about it.

[Josh]

I don’t have any direct experience with the WS but I believe Clay hit it right on the head.

As far as the tru hone, I would definitely shy away from them for kitchen knives. While they do put a decent edge on knives, they only grind one side on the last 1/4″ because of the way the wheels overlap each other, this is how they look in the machine and how they overlap:

it wouldn’t be good for nicer knives.

So you have three options:

1. they can learn how to sharpen without machine
2. they can learn to sharpen with a machine
3. they can all find someone they know who wants to take up the craft and then put that person in contact with you 😉

in case 1, you have several options – the simplest of which is to have them learn free hand on 2 water stones (similar to what murray carter teaches), it’s quick, semi easy, and doesn’t remove too much metal. If they want to go the more expensive route then buying a WEPS themselves would be ideal of course.

in case 2, for the reasons notated above, the only type of machine I would recommend to them would be either a belt sander (which is also beneficial for grinding down the “return” or “bolster” on their larger knives) or something like a Tormek (I have read that this works well if you get the Tormek accessories/jigs with it)

[Gib Curry]

I bought the first edition WorkSharp and immediately ran into the issues Clay mentioned.

I saved my pennies and purchased the WSKO version as it addresses some of the issues.

For me, I can now reach the nearest part of the edge. The variable angles is, as mentioned, far from foolproof, but is much better than the first.

I don’t know if the WSKO will stand up as a long-term commercial grinder. But, it will take a lot of metal off fast with coarser grits and higher speeds.

I’ve got a couple of old beater paring knives that are now our “cutting food on plates” knives. They get dull quickly, but a few passes through the WSKO and a strop and they are back in shape.

It might be a good alternative.

BUT…..It will still require someone to take interest and invest the time to develop some understanding and some technique.

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Cliff Stamp]

How about an intermediate solution?

If they used a simple v-rod set up then it might allow them to maintain the sharpness between sessions long enough that you could still sharpen them for them but the frequency would be so low you would not mind doing it.

[Josh]

How about an intermediate solution?

If they used a simple v-rod set up then it might allow them to maintain the sharpness between sessions long enough that you could still sharpen them for them but the frequency would be so low you would not mind doing it.

*slap myself in the forehead* I have no clue why I didn’t think of the Sharpmaker w/ the CBN rods… this would be an excellent solution!!

[Mark76]

Thanks guys for all your replies.

Leo, that Minosharp is the one I meant! It’s the best pull-through sharpener I know in the sense that it doesn’t destroy your knives. And it is able to maintain sharpness (but not to reprofile), a bit like the Sharpmaker.

And thanks for the photograph of the Tru Hone wheels, Josh. Sometimes a picture says more than a thousand words 🙂 .

Gib, I think you’re right. If they don’t want to take an interest in sharpening and develop a technique, even the best belt grinder will be useless to them. It may be quick, but they’ll use it to destroy their knives. A “professional” knife sharpener will probably take a longer time to destroy their knives 😉 , so that’d probably be a better option.

I think indeed I could decide to do their knives less frequently and have them maintain their edges themselves in the meantime. But that still means I’d be bound to them once every month or so and I don’t know if I want that.

If they want to go the more expensive route then buying a WEPS themselves would be ideal of course.

The good news in all of this is that I don’t think money will be a big issue. You can eat there only twice for the price of a WEPS 🙂 . I think I’ll simply be a bit blunt (being Dutch I am pretty good at this 😉 ). And indeed tell them that as someone who doesn’t settle for less than quality, I can only advise them to get a WEPS themselves.

To be continued next weekend.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Gib Curry]

Thanks guys for all your replies.

I think indeed I could decide to do their knives less frequently and have them maintain their edges themselves in the meantime. But that still means I’d be bound to them once every month or so and I don’t know if I want that.

I hear this loud and clear.

I’m 66 years young but I’m not 25 years old anymore. I’m semi-retired. I don’t have an actual full or part-time vocation. It’s just that I’m not opposed to making some money sharpening things as an avocation.

At the Oregon Knife show last April, a guy asked me my prices on 50 knives a month. About crapped my pants!!

Let me quote you again, “…. and I don’t know if I want that.” 🙂

Both feeling young, my wife, Joan, and I have agreed that in our retirement we might work but the difference is that we don’t HAVE to.

~~~~
For Now,

Gib

Φ

"Everyday edge for the bevel headed"

"Things work out best for those who make the best out of the way things work out."

[Mark76]

Last weekend I went to the restaurant to pick up the knives to sharpen and to talk to the chef. Coincidentally the owner (who is not the chef) was there too and dropped in. We got into a really nice talk and ended up having lunch together.

What better setting would you want to bring this up? 🙂

I didn’t have to say a lot, because the owner and the chef figured this out almost by themselves. All of the cooks liked their sharp and custom-polished (from toothy to very polished) knives a lot. And they definitely didn’t want to go back to their old sharpening service.

I feel about my own knives as tools for which I have to care. So I feel that, ideally, every cook should care about their own knives and sharpen them themselves. Well… just not everybody is like me (luckily 🙂 ).

They decided that one of the cooks, the veggie guy, who kind-of wants to learn sharpening is going to sharpen their knives from now on. With a WEPS. A guy who could potentially enjoy this; not the dishwasher 🙂 . And I’m going to train him. Haha, yes really, I’m going to give couple of hours of WEPS training 😀 .

(And, Clay, I did show them a picture of the pro machine, but I’m afraid they’re going to start off with a “normal” WEPS.)

I’m quite happy with this, and I guess everyone else as well.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

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