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My kitchen knife edges tend to roll to left side?

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This topic contains 42 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Organic 06/18/2019 at 10:49 am.

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  • #49507

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    My edges are still rolling a few weeks after sharpening.  I have it down to possibly finding by trail and error what angle to profile my Wusthof and Global knives at which would hold the edge longer.  Maybe the heat treatment of these brands comes into play too?

    MarcH pointed me to this thread on edge retention and various steels.  I read it, but most of it was beyond my pay grade :0).

    The chart attached from the article seems to point to the importance of the edge angle in edge retention.  So I think I might re-profile my edges at a higher angle like above 20 degrees to see if this makes a difference with my two brands of current kitchen knives.

    Maximizing Edge Retention – What CATRA Reveals about the Optimum Edge

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    #49512

    Organic
    Participant
    • Topics: 17
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    I thought the conclusion of the article as it related to edge retention and angle suggests that more acute sharpening angles correspond to better edge retention. Why would you decide after reading that to go and sharpen all of your knives more obtusely than you had been previously? Did I miss something?

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    #49514

    NotSharpEnuff
    Participant
    • Topics: 1
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    Expidia,

    I’m with Organic on this topic.  The research I’ve done, as well as my experience, says the lower edge angle is better for edge retention.

    Not sure everyone will get this but “I’m from Missouri” when it comes to just about everything.  So, if you just want to test the theory please post your experiences.

    Can you post some scope pictures of the rolled edge you’re experiencing?  Also, do you steel your edges?

    Ed K.

     

     

     

     

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    #49518

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1911

     

    “I’m from Missouri. … Missouri, a state in middle of the US, is known as the “Show Me” state. As legend would have it, they take a stubborn pride in being skeptical, not accepting an assertion without visible proof. So the phrase in question literally means “I don’t quite believe you.

    Consistently rolling edges to left, is key here.  If all these knives, the Wustoff set and the Global set were too soft steel and/or improperly hardened or tempered, they may be subject to damage and/or rolled edges.  But not always and consistently to the left side.  The consistency, and repetitive nature and predictability of the edge failure suggests to me it is either repeated, improper sharpening technique, or repeated, consistent, misuse of these knives.

    I have owned and used many Wusthof knives.  Yes the steel is a softer stainless steel.  It is softer, by a little bit, in comparison to other steels like the VG10 steel, (i.e., HRc 56 or 58 VS HRc 60 or 61).  It is not that soft, a steel.  Not, so soft as to suffer the described repeated edge roll, and, in particular to one side, only.  I never once experienced a rolled sharpened edge with  the eight Wusthof knives I owned, used, and sharpened.  If “expidias” knife edges were failing due to steel softness the failure would be random and to one side or the other side, but more likely to both sides.  The consistent nature, and the consistent same side failure suggests to me it is a failure of, or improper sharpening technique, leading to the edge roll.

    I would attempt to sharpen these knives to 15 dps or 17 dps, paying attention to detail and technique, to sharpen the knives equally well on both sides.   If the same results occur, that is blade roll to left, then ask a fellow W. E. sharpener to do them for you.

    IMO, There is no explanation other than sharpening error or user error to explain this issue.  Especially for two different brands of knives and for every knife in the two sets.

     

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #49537

    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 34
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    Sorry, but I can’t think of any process or design problem that would even begin to produce these results – chisel edges excepted.  It seems bizarre to think that something in the steel or in the edge geometry that would cause rolling to one side. It must be how the knife is being used and what material is being cut.  Is there maybe a slight rocking of the knife to the right when the edge reaches the cutting board?  I’ve been known to do this with stuff that sticks to the blade, like potatoes of cucumbers.

    A while back, I was flummoxed by severe chipping of my very acute-angled Aritsugu chef’s knife.  I finally came to realize that the cause was my application of high force as I broke through (think impact) a thick, hard bottom crust on a favorite artisanal bread.  Soft cutting board or not, the edge couldn’t take the high forces being applied.

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    #49538

    Mikedoh
    Moderator
    • Topics: 38
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    My thought on edge roll to the left is cutting technique. I have no doubt that Wusthof steel is softer than Japanese knives tend to be. I’m thinking that after cutting through whatever foodstuffs, the blade is then torqued/pushed to the right to separate the cut pieces from the uncut. The knife edge is either “embedded “ in the cutting “board” or dragged across it and rolls to the othe side. 2¢

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    #49539

    airscapes
    Participant
    • Topics: 10
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    My thought on edge roll to the left is cutting technique. I have no doubt that Wusthof steel is softer than Japanese knives tend to be. I’m thinking that after cutting through whatever foodstuffs, the blade is then torqued/pushed to the right to separate the cut pieces from the uncut. The knife edge is either “embedded “ in the cutting “board” or dragged across it and rolls to the othe side. 2¢

    As someone with little knife skills (that’s the wife’s job.. she cooks I clean up) this explanations of the issue seems to be the most logical and likely given all the above info and explanations.  I can visualize this actions and the result clear as day.

    #49574

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    Well, I try and profile to the factory angles first figuring the company knows best on what they set their angles at.    I had not understood the article when I decided to go higher on the angle as I figured if I went thinner it would roll even faster.  I’m not a heavy user that puts too much pressure on my knives and I do use a board.

    The Japanese Globals are factory 10-15 degrees.  If the 22 angle I have now still rolls than I’ll try 10 degrees as what TC pointed out from the article that the thinner the edge the better it slices and the longer it should retain the edge.

    The Wusthof’s come with a 15 degree angle.

    And as always thanks Organic… your input is always appreciated!

    #49575

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    Expidia, I’m with Organic on this topic. The research I’ve done, as well as my experience, says the lower edge angle is better for edge retention. Not sure everyone will get this but “I’m from Missouri” when it comes to just about everything. So, if you just want to test the theory please post your experiences. Can you post some scope pictures of the rolled edge you’re experiencing? Also, do you steel your edges? Ed K.

    I don’t use a steel on them.  I’ve sharpened all to 22 degrees now  so nothing to scope a pic of until another month or two if the rolls come back.  If I’m getting too much drag, then I’ll resharpen them sooner to a thinner and more acute angle than the factory angles.

    Thanks for your response, Ed.

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    #49576

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    My thought on edge roll to the left is cutting technique. I have no doubt that Wusthof steel is softer than Japanese knives tend to be. I’m thinking that after cutting through whatever foodstuffs, the blade is then torqued/pushed to the right to separate the cut pieces from the uncut. The knife edge is either “embedded “ in the cutting “board” or dragged across it and rolls to the othe side. 2¢

    I know, thats what is so frustrating to me that I can always feel a burr like roll after a few months which is always on the right edge when in a cutting positions.

    #49603

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
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    I knew I wasn’t crazy.  Here is a comment on how soft the Global knive’s steel is. This is off a quote from the Edge Snobs facebook forum:  “David Applewhite global are soft as shit (58HRC), so in my experience the apex will tip over if you go too aggressive on the angles 😜”

    And this is probably why my edge rolls so quickly.  Im up to a 22 angle which seems a shame for Japanese knives which tout being so thin.

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    #49624

    keith
    Participant
    • Topics: 8
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    I dunno, guys. My two cents here probably isn’t worth two cents. A cheetah and a lion: which is the better cat? There is no better cat. Both are fine products of fine engineering. The observer may favor the lion’s power over the cheetah’s speed, and vice versa.  So it is with knives, it seems to me. If we assume two knives are of the finest steels, then I think a Japanese knife is equally as good  the German’s. Granted, they have different characteristics. Any knife edge  is going to wear/chip/roll when used. All that   pressure applied to the knife  gets concentrated into that micron sized edge when chopping, cutting, etc.  But the Wusthoff edge will  roll, and  the Japanese  edge will chip despite the users best habits.   WE has solved that problem, I think. It  quickly restores any rolled/chipped edge. I simply drop back to 1000 grit, sometimes to 800,  and have my edge back to lethal in less than 20 minutes.  I pound  a 12″ Forschener, a  lower tiered quality blade, stamped steel, cheap as a newspaper on a maple cross grained board. It takes a marvelous edge and holds it just fine, all things considered.  Because I have my WE, I no longer worry about my Forschner. I’m free to make  feta basil marinara and flood it  over tortellini.  Or carve up a fine buffalo sirloin, dice up some mushrooms and asparagus, and flambe’ it all in cream sherry. Don’t  worry about your knives, boys,   get in here, and eat!  mmmmm.

    Oh, uh, I do prefer the “power” of the European steel over the “speed” of Japanese steel. I like having some balanced mass in my hand. I want my blade to be tough enough to tolerate bumps and bone  during handling, which comes at the price of blade hardness.  But this recalls my heritage in food service. It got into my kitchen DNA very early and never bleached out. I don’t know what to say about that Wusthoff bolster. 🙂 Keith

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    #49721

    Expidia
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    Thought I’d  add a link to this thread which is from was another post I did today which has probably solved my edge rolling issue.  Seems the answer is steeling (or ceramicing).

    I was under the impression that we don’t steel a WE sharpened blade.  I was not feeling a rolling edge shortly after I sharpened my kitchen knives , , , What I was feeling is a super sharp edge (felt like a burr) flopping to one side . . .  seems this is normal and a few swipes with a ceramic type steel can set that edge upright again so I don’t have to re-sharpen on the WE for probably 6 months.  I was just wasting the steel of the knife putting it back onto the system just to freshen the edge again so often.

    Watch Marc’s link to the Jende vid and also the one I posted about touching up a knife that’s been sharpened on a WE.  Also the article I linked to about choosing various steels or ceramics.  I went with the Jende set that Marc’s post linked to and just picked up those Jende’s on Amazon.

    Using a ceramic rod for touch ups?

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    #49722

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
    • Replies: 1911

    Thought I’d add a link to this thread which is from was another post I did today which has probably solved my edge rolling issue. Seems the answer is steeling (or ceramicing).

    Watch Marc’s link to the Jende vid and also the one he posted about touching up a knife that’s been sharpened on a WE. Also the article I linked to about choosing various steels or ceramics. I went with the Jende set that Marc’s post linked to and just picked up those Jende’s on Amazon.

    Please don’t misunderstand, “expidia’s” sighting my name, posting the Youtube video on steeling and the link to Jende Industries Ceramics, in the other thread, to suggest, imply or mean I agree or suggest the use of ceramic rods for his rolled edge dilemma.  I do not suggest or believe the way to go with a rolled edge is to use a ceramic rod.  IMO steeling with a ceramic rod does not solve the “edge rolling issue”, it is simply a quick and easy remedy to allow for continued use of the knife until it’s next time sharpened.  (To be clear: I only posted the video, to help out expidia, because he did not know how to do this, at that time.)

    I do believe sharpening the knife at the proper angle with proper Wicked Edge sharpening technique and using the knife with proper knife skills on a suitable cutting board is  the answer to prevent rolled knife edges.  I own and have used Wusthof knives for years and never experienced edge rolling.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #49731

    Bob Harvey
    Participant
    • Topics: 0
    • Replies: 3

    …Whustof knives with the X50CrMOV15 are relatively soft (Rockwell 58 or so) and are designed to roll fairly easily. This allows the edge to respond well to a honing steel and to be resistant to chipping even with hard use. Knives that are harder will be prone to chipping if you accidentally hit bone or knock them on the edge of a glass bowl.

    I understand the the Victorinox kitchen knives are made of same steel – and I got a set last month.

    Yeah the steel is really soft. Wife used the 8″ chef knife 4 times and it got pretty dull, won’t cut paper…

    I looked at it with the Celestron scope (thank you tcmeyer) and see “waves” in the edge where it has deformed, not chipped.

    I put the factory 15 degree angle back, and as you can imagine when the deformations were removed, there were small “missing areas” (look like small chips) which required more metal removal.

    I am fairly new to this – and hope to confirm my understanding that a kitchen steel WILL NOT STRAIGHTEN the edge, but simply starts to remove some metal (as per the science of sharp article). I would love to learn that I could simply use a steel and push the little rolled edges back in place – but I don’t think it is that simple.

    Next time this knife gets dull I will put a 20 degree micro-bevel on it.

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