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My kitchen knife edges tend to roll to left side?

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This topic contains 42 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  Organic 06/18/2019 at 10:49 am.

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  • #48658

    Expidia
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    Have not been around it awhile as a few of the regulars had taught me well on the proper use of the WE system.  It really takes a lot of sharpening sessions to break in the stones.  Problem is who has that many knives to keep sharpening!  Big difference in the clarity of my mirror edges that I like to put on my folders after I now have 75-100 sharpening sessions under my belt.  And thats mostly because all my the stones are broken in very nicely now.  I dread the thought of having to buy new ones at some point and start the breaking in process all over.

    I initially re-profiled and sharpened my kitchen knives to what the particular brand recommended for their angles on their website.   My Wustof knives have their recommended angle at 14 degrees per side for their standard blades.

    My Japanese Global Knives are recommended at 10-15 degrees.

    Edges came out super sharp, but tended not to last that long for sharpness and tended to roll towards left side after not that long.  Then I went to 17 degrees per side and eventually they still rolled to left.  Now I’m up to 20 degrees figuring this angle may hold the edge longer.  I’m not even a heavy kitchen knife user, but it ticks me off when I go to use a knife I can already feel a rolled edge like a month later after freshening the edge again!  I’ve tried the micro bevel route, but I prefer “slicing” sharpness over that of the better cutting ability of a micro bevel.

    I’ll have to see how long this latest 20 degree angle lasts.

    And what would be cause the edge to “always” roll towards the left side? Blade clamped and edge facing the ceiling.

    m I going too sharp?  My progression for this last knife 8 inch Global was at a new 20 degrees angle . . . 100, 200, 400, 600, 1000, 1500, 6mu.  I know many just go to 600-800 or so for kitchen knives.

    but I like a sharp edge.  Is that why the edge its rolling so soon?

    • This topic was modified 8 months ago by  Expidia.
    #48660

    Organic
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    I would guess use habits are the cause of the edge always rolling one direction. Unfortunately, knives that get used will dull either from rolling, chipping, or just general rounding of the apex from wear. With kitchen knives in particular you can slow this process by proper blade care (which I’m sure you already practice) and using a good cutting board. Switching to an end grain butcher block has had a marked impact on edge longevity with my kitchen blades.

    Another answer is to use better knives. Whustof and Global knives are good compared to most other mass produced knife brands, but you can easily find knives with better blade steel and blade profiles if you are willing to invest in a quality knife from a small producer. I personally think that hand made Japanese cutlery is where its at for kitchen knives. Try something made from Aogami Super with a Rockwell in the 62-65 range and the edge will last and last with proper care.

    I don’t know a ton about the steel used in the Global knives, but Whustof knives with the X50CrMOV15 are relatively soft (Rockwell 58 or so) and are designed to roll fairly easily. This allows the edge to respond well to a honing steel and to be resistant to chipping even with hard use. Knives that are harder will be prone to chipping if you accidentally hit bone or knock them on the edge of a glass bowl.

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    #48661

    Expidia
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    Thanks Organic.  I have wood cutting boards, but tend to cut on a paper plate for speed of not having to clean up.  Yes, the roll comes right off with a honing steel, so thats why I thought the edge was too sharp or floppy.  I’m sure you hit it on the head on the softness of the steel on the two brands I have now from years ago.  My harder steel folders S30 and 90 V and higher never roll on me.  I’ll pull my wooden cutting board back out and try that too.

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    #48662

    wickededge
    Keymaster
    • Topics: 121
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    You might also try applying a little convex geometry to the edge.

    -Clay

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    #48672

    tcmeyer
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    It’s also possible that you are just putting too much pressure on the edge while in contact with the cutting board.  My Japanese Aritsugu chipped really bad and I came to find that it was from pushing through the very hard crust of a particular type of bread we like.  When the edge hit the board, it was more like a crash.  Now I cut the loaf down to the crust, then turn the loaf 90 degrees and cut through the rest of the way.

    I would think that a softer steel would roll its edge under the same pressures.

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    #48673

    Expidia
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    Thanks TC.  I need a new board anyway.  I’ve been using paper plates or a thin vinyl cutting board which might be the cause of the rolling of these softer steel knives.  I’ll try out one of the knives Organic suggested too.

    #48674

    Organic
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    This is the one that I have and it is a wonderful knife.

    https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ka24wa.html

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    #48707

    Expidia
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    Hi Organic.  The one you linked to is $270!  What is you opinion of this one for $209 on Amazon:

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    #48713

    Organic
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    That looks like it would be a fine knife. It might be a bit overpriced for a VG-10 blade. If you’re thinking VG-10 is the way you want to go you can get a Yaxell Mon 210mm for about $80. I have one of these and it holds an edge pretty well. It is a bit on the heavy side of Japanese style knives and the grind isn’t mind blowing, but it shouldn’t have issues with rolling.

    Two knives that come very highly recommended closer to the $200 price range are the Kohetsu knives. The Hap40 is a semi-stainless steel that is a very good performer and the Aogami Super is a reactive steel that I have come to enjoy for edge retention and ease of sharpening. Read the reviews. These knives are well loved by professionals and home cooks alike.

    https://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu21gy.html

    https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohawagy21.html

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    #48715

    Expidia
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    I looked over the info.  Thanks.  Is there a trade off between hardness of the steel and too hard causing micro chipping since a kitchen knife does so much   chopping and rapping the edge hard on a wooden board.

    Do you freshen your edges on the WE or just stropping or using a ceramic rod?  Are you using whetstones since some have convex edges?

    There are so many different charts for steel hardness.  I see where V10 falls.  But not HRC 63-64 from the same chart.  I don’t see the steel hardness listed for your $270 knife in the ad.

    I don’t do sushi.  I’m looking for a general kitchen knife for slicing and chopping (but I don’t want a straight chopper).  I was looking towards Amazon as I had some gift dollars accumulated.  When I read reviews I look  more at the negative reviews as the positive ones can be planted by the manufacturer or sponsored by the seller.  Another member PM’d me who said he buys his from a source directly from Japan.  This might be a good way to go if I can get better steel for a lower price.  I’m sure any knife on Amazon is overpriced.  The two you pointed me too are also exclusives to Chefknifestogo which I’m always leery of the value.  I’m still pondering that first one you posted for $270. I know I should be more concerned with the blade edge but a $270 knife for me is also a kitchen show piece they could have done a bit more with that handle material for the price.

    I do like that its Damascus as I mostly only buy Damascus blades when I collect folders as they tend to hold their values better (and look cool too).   If I could get something similar to yours direct from Japan, then I could get a 240mm plus a smaller one for other general kitchen use and not have to use my real old Global or Wusthof knives that don’t hold an edge very long anyway.

     

     

    #48717

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 58
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    Expidia,  IMO, I have found knives with steel harder then VG10 (HRc 60-61) enter in to the chipping realm.  These harder steels besides being more difficult to sharpen tend to get more expensive with their elaborate steel formulations.  These harder steels tend to chip with use, rather then just wear down and dull, and micro-chip while sharpening.

    The AS steel, Organic recommends, (Aogami Super, HRc 64-65), in my personal experience, sharpens surprisingly well and easily without chipping for such a hard steel.  It shares the sharpness attributes of high carbon steels and hardness of the fancy Japanese powdered tool steels.  It is reactive though and tends to blacken or patina with use.  It may impart a sulfur-like smell when cutting acidic foods and stain some foods black.

    When I bought my first Wicked Edge, I did what you’re doing and started searching for good kitchen/chef’s knives to sharpen.  That were inexpensive.  I learned of the Tojiro DP brand from “Kitchen Knife Forum” and others.  These Tojiro DP’s are available in all the different styles, shape and sizes common to Japanese Style Kitchen knives and at a reasonable price.  They are a good choice and price point to enter into the Japanses style knives, inexpensively, to learn if you like to use them.  They can be had in regular VG10 stainless and layered Damascus Style steels.  Be sure what your looking at because Tojiro also produces knives in several other steels, too.

    I purchased a full collection of these to round out my kitchen, to hone my kitchen knife skills and to learn how to sharpen with the Wicked Edge, all at the same time.   Years later I sold off the collection to a W.E. forum participant.

    The common Japanese knife styles are:

    Gyuto – Chef’s knife, 210 mm or roughly 8″

    Santoku – All purpose knife 170 mm or roughly 7″

    Petty knife – a thin utility knife

    Paring knife – same as your used to for peeling, roughly 3.5″

    Then there are others for boning, slicing and cutting or chopping vegetables

    These are a good quality, good fit and finish knife to get the feel for this type of knife.  Without investing a whole lot.  There are better more expensive knives, but bang for your buck these can’t be beat.

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

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    #48720

    Organic
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    There are a lot of factors that determine the price of a knife. Blade steel is one of them, but isn’t the be all determiner of quality or function. I might have given you the impression that it is more important than it is. The harder the steel, the more prone to chipping it will be. If you want a knife that you can use without too much fear of chipping then VG-10 is a good choice. You will rarely see it hardened to much more than 62. It will be a big step up in terms of edge retention and lack of rolling compared to your European style knives. The Tojiro DP line is a good recommendation for your first foray into Japanese style knives since they are a good value and will help you figure out what attributes you like. I’m by no means saying that you have to spend $200+ on a knife to get a good one. Its probably better idea to get a more budget friendly blade at first. You might be totally satisfied with the Yaxell that I mentioned or the Tojiros that mark recommended.

    The blade grind (how thick the blade stock is, whether it is convex on the faces, flat ground, hollow ground or some more complex geometry, how much distal taper) and the profile (how much belly / how flat the cutting edge is), and finish (are the handles well made, are the spine and choil rounded, is the blade straight and evenly ground from side to side, appearance) are factors that really distinguish good knives and great knives. A lot of this comes down to personal preference, but there are several blade smiths who have gained a reputation for hitting a beautiful balance on these attributes and producing knives that consistently earn high praise. Kanehiro is one of those blade smiths and I would be willing to bet that you’d be impressed with the knife I recommended. It redefined what I thought about sharpness when I got mine. It may not suit your personal preferences because it is a more delicate blade and I have no doubt that it would chip along the edge if it were used to cut hard materials. I have a Victorinox chef knife that I use for any task where bones are going to be involved. The only reason I mentioned that knife in particular was that I personally own it and am impressed with it. I did not mean to say that it was THE knife to get. Similarly, I have had good shopping experiences with Chef Knifes to Go and I trust their recommendations.

    Steve mentions the hardness in his product overview:

    I strop on the WE between sharpenings. I don’t use a ceramic or steel rod on my knives, but ceramic would be the way you’ll want to go for harder knives if you don’t want to strop.

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    #48729

    Expidia
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    Everyone who has chipped in gave me some great info since I’m not familiar with quality kitchen knives.   I’ve also been going back and forth with Marc by email and he really knows his kitchen knives.  One of his suggestions that he pointed me to was this VG10 Damascus steel Yu Kurosaki and some others too as Organic and TC did.  I’m a collector of Damascus folders and once I saw this one I was smitten.  With a coupon code it knocked it down to $403.  Just wanted to thank all again who guided me.

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    #48740

    Organic
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    I’ve seen those as well. That line has a stunning aesthetic and Yu Kurosaki is a well respected maker. Prepare to have your world realigned.

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    #48745

    Expidia
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    Thanks Organic.  As I mentioned above I collect Damascus and Damasteel folders so when I saw the one I finally bought it was love at first sight asthetically!

    Hopefully, it will even slice and dice up a tomato or an onion for me!

    I’m still going to compare your suggested knives as now Im in the market for a 150 mm and a 120 mm to replace my Global knives that won’t hold an edge for me very long.

    As you say  . . . prepare to have my world re-aligned . . . as I enter the world of better quality kitchen knives.

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