Maintaining Waterstones for use on the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

You’re certainly on the right track, Mark! B)

I would only make one slight “correction”, which is to change breakdown to abrasive or particle release rate.

the porousness of the stone, i.e. the gaps between abrasives and binding agents: more porous = larger gaps or more gaps = faster breakdown

We are definitely heading toward deeper discussions of “which stones for what purpose”. That is where the real fun is – but before you go there, you’ll need to begin forming a sharpening philosophy – Otherwise you’ll go crazy chasing after each new revelation! 👿

[Mark76]

Thanks a lot, teacher! :cheer: You should have chosen another job ;).

Just one thing before I start soaking my Chosera’s: what is the use of water on these stones?

Obviously I have read a bit about it ;). Such as about the difference between slurry and swarf[/url]. A slurry is a mixture of water and stone abrasive and may help in polishing/sharpening. A swarf is a mixture of water and metal debris, which inhibits the action of the stones and is therefore undesirable.

Water helps to create a slurry and remove the swarf. (There is a nice book page on this phenomenon, too, including some controversy as to the use of slurry.)

However, why do some stones create a slurry whereas others don’t? Or: why should Chosera stones be used wet and the Wicked Edge ceramic stones be used dry? (I know these latter stones can be used wet and that soapy water will probably keep them cleaner, but that is not really necessary.)

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

The primary use of water on stones is for lubrication and for washing off debris. However, as you begin to develop and use the paste (which is an advantageous breakdown of the abrasive mixed with water and metal bits), or mud, the water is used to keep things at a certain “concentration”. For example, a popular honing method for straights using a coticule, called the “Dilucot” method, starts off with a heavy slurry concentration and gradually adds water to dilute the concentration, thus slowing down the action so that it polishes more than it cuts, ultimately ending with stone and clean water only. With no lose abrasive, it is the least invasive abrading, which is good for finishing an edge. Most synthetics work on this same premise. (Coticule’s abrasive is Garnet, which are about 8-9 on the Mohs, so there is a more similar connection to Aluminum Oxide stones, rather than other natural stones).

In an odd connection to the Dilucot method, this is also why some stones like the WEPS ceramics are used dry – the texture of the surface of the stone catches the loosened abrasive and metal bits (aka dust), which are generally finer than the grit of the stone, and add more polishing/burnishing. Depending on your sharpening philosophy, you can see that as either “clogging” or “enhancing” the action of the stone. Cleaning them off will make the stone more aggressive again.

You see Arkansas stones generally promote the use of oil (which I know is your next question!), and that serves the same purpose as water, but I think oil holds the paste/swarf better. In this case, unlike the Aluminum Oxide, you have an abrasive that does like to break down, becoming finer as you use it longer. We all know how well oil attracts dirt and does not readily evaporate, so the trick is to use the same oil paste as long as you can in order to achieve a finer finish than just a clean stone – which is quite the opposite approach!

Japanese Naturals work the same as Arkansas, but they use the water just as effectively – probably (and this is a gross generalization) because the abrasives break down more readily. Ken can describe in greater detail about the stones with holes (suita?) and without, that are used purposely to catch smaller particles, much like the Ceramic WEPS.

….and we have come full circle :silly:

[Josh]

Thanks Tom and Mark… great input! Tom, is that why you cleaned off your slurry AND swarf before the final step with the 10k choseras in the recent video of you shaving w/ the pocket knife? I know you explained it in the video… this minimalizes the cutting action and polishes more (if I remember correctly)… am I right?

[Jende Industries]

You are correct, sir! :cheer:

[Mark76]

Josh,

I just noticed the link to the book page from Google Books I posted before was not working. So here is a retry: The Perfect Edge: The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers. The folder on the Nagura stone contains some information regarding your question.

Obviously I’m not the expert here. Just pointing to some interesting material.

Tom, have you got a clue why stones that require water seem to wear faster? (Or is it a wrong observation?) My el cheapo stones that require almost constant soaking/keeping wet wear down very fast, whereas the Wicked Edge ceramic stones don’t seem to abrade at all. Does the water cause the wearing down (e.g., due to dissolving the resin bond), or is the wearing down the reason you want to add water (to create the slurry and remove the swarf)? Or do we need Ken to answer this question?

Ken, where are you? Come back! 😉 (You have got an unread PM, by the way. The notification is rather obfuscated, but you can access it by clicking on the link in the top right corner.)

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

Tom, have you got a clue why stones that require water seem to wear faster? (Or is it a wrong observation?) My el cheapo stones that require almost constant soaking/keeping wet wear down very fast, whereas the Wicked Edge ceramic stones don’t seem to abrade at all. Does the water cause the wearing down (e.g., due to dissolving the resin bond), or is the wearing down the reason you want to add water (to create the slurry and remove the swarf)? Or do we need Ken to answer this question?

I’d say it is a correct generalization when you throw in the sheer number of “el cheapo” stones on the market 😛

But Shaptons and Choseras are in a class of their own on the high end, and are designed to hold up longer while cutting faster, so I think you’d be wrong in this specific case. 😉

Overall, I think wear rates are more dependent on the binding agent/matrix hardness. Ceramic stones like the WEPS ceramic and the Shaptons use a ceramic binder which holds the abrasives in place better and longer. Choseras use a Magnesia bond, which is a little softer and more “cushy” (hence the wonderful feedback).

In theory, by using water the wear rate is increased overall because the abrasion rate is increased as you are flushing the system of swarf, which is in contrast to stones used dry, which “loads up” the surface, slowing abrasion, thus slowing the wear rate down.

[Mark76]

Hey Tom, the picture is getting clearer and clearer!

What occurs to me is that the WEPS ceramic stones and the Shapton stones seem very similar. Both use aluminium oxide with a ceramic bond, both are hardly porous and very slow wearing.

Are there any major differences between them? Why is it that the Shaptons require some water (but only a little bit) and the WEPS ceramics stones don’t (although a little bit of water might help)?

And now I am going to use my Chosera stones for the first time .

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

I feel the WEPS ceramics have a softer matrix than the Shaptons, overall. This makes sense because you want the ceramic to be able to come loose on the WEPS ceramics, but the Shapton mentality is to keep on abrading at every level.

In other news, I will be making some lapping videos with my WEPS Shaptons and Choseras this weekend. Keep an eye on my Youtube channel! B)

[Mark76]

That is interesting, Tom! After three months of use I am not able to observe any wear on my WEPS ceramic stones. So the Shaptons will show even less wear? (Though I am not quite sure what you mean by “you want the ceramic to be able to come loose on the WEPS ceramics”. The abrasive ceramic stays right where it is on my WEPS ceramic stones.)

And have you got any clue why the recommendation for the Shaptons is to use a some water and for the WEPS ceramics is to use them dry? Is that something about the way the stones are constructed or is it more like the “cleaning philosophy” behind the stones? (The WEPS stones can be used dry, but they do collect steel dust and require frequent cleaning.)

Keep an eye on my Youtube channel!

Subscribed! It’s like Youporn, but your social environment won’t complain B).

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Mark76]

I did an interesting discovery during the last few days. When you add a little bit of water to the WEPS ceramic stones, the edge seems to come out much clearer than when you use no water! :cheer: You don’t need to soak the stones: just a few drops of water to keep the stones wet are enough.

The edge even approaches the mirror you normally only get after the 5K/10K Choseras or after stropping with the WEPS stropping pastes.

I was wondering whether anyone has any ideas on why the is the case.

It might seem an obvious case of “facts fit theory”. The theory here is that by keeping the stones wet, you prevent clogging the stones with metal filings. This prevents the filings to scratch the edge and makes the stones more effective.

However, I doubt whether this theory holds. The reason is that the stones get just as black when you use them with water as when you use them without water. So apparently steel filings are still accumulating in/on the stone. Or am I misinterpreting this?

Is there anyone who can shed more light on this?

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[wickededge]

I can’t speak yet to why it works so well to use water with the ceramics, but I can attest to Mark’s results; I get tremendous results by keeping the ceramic stones wet. I use a spray bottle with water and a few drops of dish soap and get great results – essentially a mirror polish. After the ceramics, a few strokes with the strops and the edges gleam beautifully. Here are the Kershaw blades I just completed with that exact method:

I did an interesting discovery during the last few days. When you add a little bit of water to the WEPS ceramic stones, the edge seems to come out much clearer than when you use no water! :cheer: You don’t need to soak the stones: just a few drops of water to keep the stones wet are enough.

The edge even approaches the mirror you normally only get after the 5K/10K Choseras or after stropping with the WEPS stropping pastes.

I was wondering whether anyone has any ideas on why the is the case.

It might seem an obvious case of “facts fit theory”. The theory here is that by keeping the stones wet, you prevent clogging the stones with metal filings. This prevents the filings to scratch the edge and makes the stones more effective.

However, I doubt whether this theory holds. The reason is that the stones get just as black when you use them with water as when you use them without water. So apparently steel filings are still accumulating in/on the stone. Or am I misinterpreting this?

Is there anyone who can shed more light on this?

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-Clay

[Jende Industries]

Ytreich from the Knife Forums hits the nail on the head, IMO:

The metal that adheres to the surface of a ceramic piece galls your blade badly. I’ve seen it under a high powered microscope, and it’s not pretty.

I’ve also witnessed this in person. Basically, the ceramic loads up with metal flakes, and those flakes stick out like cactus needles, adding stray divots to the surface of the edge. This is somewhat similar to metal burnishing, but its overall coarseness makes it less desirable at the WEPS 1200/1600 level of refinement. We’ve seen that than on higher grits, metal burnishing can be more beneficial.

Don’t forget the flip side – if you let the ceramics load up, they do leave a more refined edge, even if it is less perfect.

[Mark76]

Ytreich from the Knife Forums hits the nail on the head, IMO:

The metal that adheres to the surface of a ceramic piece galls your blade badly. I’ve seen it under a high powered microscope, and it’s not pretty.

I’ve also witnessed this in person. Basically, the ceramic loads up with metal flakes, and those flakes stick out like cactus needles, adding stray divots to the surface of the edge. [/quote]

How do you recognize that the ceramic loads up with the metal?

The point is, when I use the WEPS ceramics with water, the stones do not come out cleaner than when I use them without water. In both cases, there is a little bit of black stuff (metal, I assume) that remains on the stones.

Molecule Polishing: my blog about sharpening with the Wicked Edge

[Jende Industries]

There will always be some residual “black” metal swarf on the ceramic stones/steel That’s part of abrading. I think the water helps keep it from accumulating to the point where it begins to burnish the metal instead of abrading into it.

[Author]

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