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Gouging out a “dip” in my blade

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  • #55180
    Todd Forbes
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
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    Hello, I am fairly new to WEPS, got the Pro Pack III and added the 50/80 stones for reprofiling, have done about 20 knives so stones are just now broken in and I have a pretty good hang on using it. I have run into an issue when trying to reprofile & even up edges on factory knives which never have even bevels or at the angle they say they are.  When lowering the angle down and raising a burr starting on the right side first in an attempt to apex the blade there is often more metal down towards the ricasso or sharpening choil end of the blade so I have to scrub it longer to raise the burr in this area.  In the photo where the grind line dips down towards the sharpening choil 1/“ from the end of the blade, it’s actually a dip in the steel that you can feel with your finger nail.  The location of this dip on the blade is the same exact place as the edge of my stone so I’m wondering if I might have a high spot on the 50/80 or 100/200 grit stones I use to raise a burr when apexing the blade?  I don’t think that it’s because I just spent too long scrubbing this area because the dip is small and not over the entire last 1/4” of the blade.  I suspect it might be the 50/80 stones are not broken in since I haven’t used them on all of the knives I have sharpened and I believe a grit this coarse probably takes longer to break in.
    Have any of you experienced this before?  I’m not sure how to fix it, I guess I could go from its current 15 DPS to 20 DPS which would take down the bevel & and remove a good amount of metal.
    Thanks!

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    #55182
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 97

    I made the same mistake on one of my practice knives. I believe that the mistake was when I was scrubbing the choil end of the edge to bring it even with the rest of the blade, I was using too much pressure on the side of the stone and caused it to dig in to the edge too much in the same spot. So I am much more careful with the stones now.

    It’s probably just natural for our hands to apply more pressure to the side of the stone that our fingers are on rather than the side of the stone that our thumbs are on. that was my reasoning anyway. But I am still learning also and far from being an expert.

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    #55183
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 62
    • Replies: 2202

    Todd, it appears to me you are scrubbing over the top of the thumb stud that sticks out on the right side, as the knife is mounted in the W.E. vise.   It appears to me that the top surface of the stud is showing signs of stone wear and contact.   My guess is the stud contact while scrubbing is effecting the angle which your stone is meeting the knife edge resulting in the dip in this one place.

    I believe if the stones, 50/80 or the 100/200  were unlevel with defects the dip would be seen in several places along the edge as you move the stone’s position of contact along the knife as you worked the entire edge length….not just in that one exact place.

    20201107_104326

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

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    #55186
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 97

    Good catch, Marc! I missed that. My problem was the pressure because I detest thumbstuds, flippers, and thumbholes. And I’m careful to make sure nothing is in the way of my stones.

    #55187
    Todd Forbes
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    Thanks Marc & Robert, I believe you are both correct, this only happens when I’m scrubbing the choil area so putting too much pressure on one side of the stone makes since.  I’m also definitely hitting the stud and that’s not helping matters, I checked and thought I was clearing it.  I also did this exact same thing to a Spyderco without a thumb stud, I don’t know if I should even try to remove these dips as that would require removing a lot of metal, they are users so I will just see how that part of the edge holds up and be a lot more careful when profiling the thicker choil area.  Thanks for the replies!

    #55188
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 97

    Since you have a Pro Pack III, you may be able to use your LAA (Low Angle Adapter) to give more clearance between your stone and the thumbstuds.

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    #55200
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 62
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    this only happens when I’m scrubbing the choil area so putting too much pressure on one side of the stone makes sense….. I also did this exact same thing to a Spyderco without a thumb stud,

    I use a scrubbing stroke as the beginning sharpening stroke with each and every grit I’m employing in my sharpening progressions.  I keep this scrubbing stroke moving so the stone is never positioned too long in any one place along the knife edge.  I also alternate my scrubbing strokes from knife side to side to keep my edge work even and balanced  This way, by constantly moving the stones along the length of the knife edge, and working both knife sides evenly while alternating from side to side, even if your applied stone pressure favors one stone, or even one side of a stone over the other, this pressure is constantly moving.  This helps to prevent uneven or excessive removal of steel from any one place along the knife edge over another.

    The issue many knife sharpeners experience with Spyderco knives is the lack of a sharpening choil where the knife edge immediately transitions to the recasso.  It’s difficult to sharpen that transition well and maintain this crisp transition without spending too much time with the sharpening stones in that one position.

    Some W.E. users apply a sharpening choil to create a knife edge break in the steel.   Other W.E. users have removed the plastic lip that surrounds the mounted sharpening stones from their W.E. paddles.  (This can be done fairly easily with a belt sander.)  This allows the users to position their sharpening stones tighter against this transition.  Care must still be exercised to avoid excessive steel removal by spending too long working this one position.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

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    #55201
    Todd Forbes
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    I was definitely spending to much time just scrubbing the choil area, I hate that Spyderco does not use sharpening choil s.  I do spend some time on the other side when apexing to keep it centered but definitely not equal amounts of time so I will start doing that to ensure a centered edge.  I usually start apexing on the right side which takes the most time by far, once it’s apexed the other side does not take nearly as long, and these dips in the edge I have created on a couple of knives only have it on the right side where I start the process.
    How are people removing the plastic edge on their stones, just grind it off?  It might be work getting an extra set of 100/200 with one edge removed, just need to be careful about finger placement.  Thanks Marc, good information as always!

    #55202
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 62
    • Replies: 2202

    Electric belt sander/grinder.  The paddle plastic does melt so you may have to clean up the remnants with a sharp edge.

    I usually start apexing on the right side which takes the most time by far, once it’s apexed the other side does not take nearly as long, and these dips in the edge I have created on a couple of knives only have it on the right side where I start the process.

    Yes, the second side appears to apex quicker.  Your scratch pattern apexing the edge on the second side is easier to discern.  The second side burr will begin to form quicker.  That’s because the bevel height was lowered a little as the first side was beveled and apexed.  You’ll feel the second side’s burr as it starts before the second bevel is fully and completely formed and the apex is completely formed, too.  This can fool you into thinking your done. Whereas, in reality, the bevel work and bevel heights are uneven.

    If you alternate sides with your stone scrubbing the burrs form more balanced and evenly from side to side and you’re bevel heights will be easier to keep balanced.  The amount of time it’ll take will be balanced between the two sides and the amount of work and steel removal will be kept more in balance too.   You won’t be chasing back and forth to balance your bevel heights.

    Using a USB microscope with sharpie painted bevels helps you to see your progress so you know right when your apexes are formed.  With time, experience and practice you’ll recognize your progress and be able to forgo the sharpies.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

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    #55203
    Todd Forbes
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    I didn’t know a “false apex” could appear on the second side but it makes sense.  Do you just apex once on each side, say with the 100 grit, then move on to sharpening & honing or do you apex a second time with the 200 grit stone just to make sure the bevels are set & even?

    Thanks!

    #55204
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 62
    • Replies: 2202

    I use each grit in my sharpening progressions the same.   The same stroke routine, again and again.  Just by the nature of my repetitive technique I apex the edges on both sides and form burrs with each and every stone pair.  It’s not intentional, just the result of my consistent technique.

    I do verify my guide rod angles with my angle cube.  I make micro-angle adjustments as necessary with each and every grit and medium change.

    My last sharpening strokes in my regimen, with each and every grit in my progression, is alternating side strokes.  That is left-right-left-right, in the edge leading direction.  That is down and onto the knife edge.  This removes any burr remnants and exposes the sharpened apex.  Exercise care with edge leading strokes.  It’s very easy to cut yourself pulling your stones down across an exposed sharpened knife edge.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

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    #55205
    000Robert
    Participant
    • Topics: 4
    • Replies: 97

    I use each grit in my sharpening progressions the same. The same stroke routine, again and again. Just by the nature of my repetitive technique I apex the edges on both sides and form burrs with each and every stone pair. It’s not intentional, just the result of my consistent technique. I do verify my guide rod angles with my angle cube. I make micro-angle adjustments as necessary with each and every grit and medium change. My last sharpening strokes in my regimen, with each and every grit in my progression, is alternating side strokes. That is left-right-left-right, in the edge leading direction. That is down and onto the knife edge. This removes any burr remnants and exposes the sharpened apex. Exercise care with edge leading strokes. It’s very easy to cut yourself pulling your stones down across an exposed sharpened knife edge.

    I sharpen the same as you do. Thanks, Marc!

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    #55212
    Todd Forbes
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 4

    What I have been doing when I re-profile an edge is set the angles with my cube, scrub one side until it apexes (I scrub some on the opposite side but not enough) then apex the other side which is always faster, then use leading alternating strokes from 200 grit up to 1500.
    It sounds like you scrub one side at a time, a little at a time on each side until you get up to the higher grits and then you use leading alternating strokes yes?
    I’m able to get a very sharp edge but it’s the re-profiling that’s my issue, I set the bevel on most of my folders at 15 DPS and few come from the factory that way even if that’s the angle they are striving for. Some factory bevels on production knives are horrible, all are uneven.
    Thanks Marc!

    #55213
    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 62
    • Replies: 2202

    I use a scrubbing stroke as the beginning sharpening stroke with each and every grit I’m employing in my sharpening progressions. I keep this scrubbing stroke moving so the stone is never positioned too long in any one place along the knife edge. I also alternate my scrubbing strokes from knife side to side to keep my edge work even and balanced This way, by constantly moving the stones along the length of the knife edge, and working both knife sides evenly while alternating from side to side, even if your applied stone pressure favors one stone, or even one side of a stone over the other, this pressure is constantly moving. This helps to prevent uneven or excessive removal of steel from any one place along the knife edge over another.

    I use each grit in my sharpening progressions the same. The same stroke routine, again and again. Just by the nature of my repetitive technique I apex the edges on both knife sides and form burrs with each and every stone pair. It’s not intentional, just the result of my consistent technique. I do verify my guide rod angles with my angle cube. I make micro-angle adjustments as necessary with each and every grit and medium change. My last sharpening strokes in my regimen, with each and every grit in my progression, is alternating side strokes. That is left-right-left-right, in the edge leading direction. That is down and onto the knife edge. This removes any burr remnants and exposes the sharpened apex. Exercise care with edge leading strokes. It’s very easy to cut yourself pulling your stones down across an exposed sharpened knife edge.

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-Its)

    1 user thanked author for this post.
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