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? counterfeit 12 inch guide rods . . . .

Recent Forums Main Forum Sharpener and Accessory Maintenance ? counterfeit 12 inch guide rods . . . .

This topic contains 25 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Expidia 07/03/2019 at 6:01 am.

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  • #50756

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    Can someone who has 12 inch rods compare theirs to the ones that I bought on Ebay that were sold as new Wicked Edge rods?

    I would have bought them from WE, but I ordered $120 ceramic microfines with free shipping and did not realize until a day or two later that I forgot to add the rods.  The rods alone are an extra $8.95 to ship which is almost 30%!  I should have called Kyle and asked for a shipping courtesy but too late now.

    I have my doubts these rods that I ordered off of Ebay new with free shipping are OEM.

    .1  The threads are only 1/2 inch long.  My 10 inch rods and my 8 inch rods are 3/4 inch.

    .2  Both my other sets came with nuts, these did not

    .3 The texture of the stainless steel feels like an acoustic guitar string and makes the same noise when you run your fingers up and down.  With the paddles on them they make the same noise.  This is sure to wear the insides of my paddles.  If I keep them I might have to polish them smooth with I’m thinking 1500 or 2000 grit automotive sandpaper?  Or any better idea how to polish them smooth? I don’t want to spend $8 to return them to the Ebay seller and have him tell me they are OEM!

    So look at the pics and the label and tell me if you think they are knockoffs.  I can send the pics to Kyle and ask him if no one can tell here.

    Thx

     

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    #50768

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    No takers?  No problem . . .

    I created a ticket for my answer with WE support:

    Attachments:
    #50770

    airscapes
    Participant
    • Topics: 9
    • Replies: 141

    They look like the set I bought from WE a couple weeks ago. Do the handles fit correctly?  If so, install them and use them.  They do not come with nuts as nuts are not used with the current gen ball joints and the thread does not need to be as long as there are no lock nuts to consume space.

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  airscapes.
    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50772

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    Thanks on the nuts.  I quesioned it as one of WE’s vendors is selling them on Amazon (Optics Planet) and their picture shows a nut on each.

    What do yours feel like.  Do they feel polished like the set that came with your system or do they feel textured?  The noise the paddels make going up and down on the rods is really annoying plus I’m sure not being polished they are going to wear the inside of the paddles prematurely.  Making them sloppy.  If WE tells me from the ticket I opened with them they are OEM then I’ll have to mod them by mounting them in a drill, spinning them and using automotive sand paper lightly polish them like my two other sets.

    WE was using a machinist in VT a few years ago, then switched to another shop but allowed the VT shop to conitnue to sell off their stock. These might be from that VT shop or they might be Ebay Chinese knock off.  They copy labels and you can’t tell they are counterfit.

    #50773

    rummels
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 9

    Expedia

    The packaging that your guide rods came in looks identical to the packaging that my 12” guide rods came in.  My 12” guide rods came directly from WEPS.

    The length of the threading on both my original 10” guide rods and my 12” guide rods is 3/8”.

    If I run a finger nail up and down the sides of any of my guide rods it creates what I can best describe as a high-pitched squeaking sound.  I hear the same sound if I put one of  my unused 100/200 grit diamond stones on one of the rods and quickly move it up and down the rod.

    I hope this helps

    rummels

    • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  rummels.
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    #50774

    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 33
    • Replies: 1779

    My last pair of rods from WE make a whistling sound when I slide the handles up and down on them.  It’s nothing to be concerned about and will not wear your handles out.

    I make my own rods with a die turned over the end of a 0.257″ rod, as opposed to 0.250″ diameter.  As such, the die is a very tight fit and difficult to turn.  Since it’s so hard to turn, I only put on about 4 threads.  With only 4 threads, the die hasn’t had time to properly align itself with the rod and this means that the rod is likely not perfectly coaxial with the ball (Heim) joint threads.  In turn, this means that if the rod turns in the ball joint threads, it could change the angle significantly.  So I need to use the jam nut.  This only leave about two threads to engage the threads in the ball joint.  Since there is almost zero load on this connection, it’s OK.

    The correct way is to turn the diameter down on a lathe before threading.  This will leave a very small, but visible step in the diameter where the threads meet the unthreaded portion.  My Gen 3 Pro has this step on its rods.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #50775

    airscapes
    Participant
    • Topics: 9
    • Replies: 141

    To make the rod it is machined, leaving tool marks.   If you polish the tool marks off the rod will then be under sized.  The rods I bought last week have tool marks on them and they make the expected sound when the stone is move over it quickly.  You got OEM Rods and saved on the shipping, it’s a win!

    Best advice is to buy from WE, even if you pay a little more, shipping is quite expensive these days.

    We get used to amazon and forget that they own the world.. I ordered a pair of Jeans from Wrangler directly and paid $8 shipping .. they didn’t fit.. I had to pay $12 to ship them back.. that’s $20 to try on a pair of jeans..  This is our world as we know it..

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    #50777

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    Thanks Airscapes.   WE might have switched manufacturers of these rods.    They should be polished.  I’ll discuss it with Kyle to see whats up.  If they still have polished ones in stock Ill buy them when I re-new my 100 stones which will pit me over $100 for free shipping and re-sell these.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50779

    MarcH
    Moderator
    • Topics: 57
    • Replies: 1752

    To make the rod it is machined, leaving tool marks. If you polish the tool marks off the rod will then be under sized. The rods I bought last week have tool marks on them and they make the expected sound when the stone is move over it quickly.

    They look like the set I bought from WE a couple weeks ago. Do the handles fit correctly? If so, install them and use them. They do not come with nuts as nuts are not used with the current gen ball joints and the thread does not need to be as long as there are no lock nuts to consume space.

    airscapes, thanks for trying to dispel this confusion and help the forum out.  You are correct.  The questionable guide rods have the three telltale characteristics of real genuine guide rods ordered and machined to W.E. specifications:

    1. shortened threads – W.E. shortened the threads in the most recently designed rods while they shortened the threaded ball rod end pockets they thread into, to allow for a longer usable guide rod and to improve the efficient use of the stone’s full length while moving across the knife edge.
    2. W.E. deleted the lock nut because it was determined there was no need to have it and it limited the usable guide rod length and the stone’s full travel.
    3. The newest version guide rods were machined with a slightly wider diameter to improve the fit and tolerance in the newest version paddle bore holes.  These new rods have a rippled appearance and a distinctive singing or whispy sound as the plastic paddles slide up and down across the high and low spots.  These singing rods are the “tell-tale” characteristic that lets me know it’s the real thing and the most precisely performing guide rods offered.

    Your efforts are recognized and appreciated. Thank you!

     

     

    Marc
    (MarcH's Rack-It)

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #50784

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    Thanks Marc.  Thats why I asked my questions as these as you say they are not counterfeit they are of a  “new style” rods that are different from my other two “polished” sets.  I’m still not a fan of them singing.  And “singing” is a good term you used to describe their noise. The closest I could come was sliding up and down on an acoustic guitar string.  And when I finished my edge with them the right rod was tight the left rod had loosened which I attributed to possibly shorter threads if they were not OEM and I did not  want to over-tighten and strip the ball joint threads.

    I opened a ticket maybe they will note why the singing rod innovation.  I have a die set and I’ve read here that several members have fashioned their own rods from stainless stock.

    I’d like to hear Clay’s opinion on why the new singing rod design?  I have not seen Clay posting since the blade show?  Maybe he takes a vacation after the Blade show event?

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50786

    Bill Kirkley
    Participant
    • Topics: 18
    • Replies: 89

    My WE is several years old. The stones are mounted on plastic. If the current stones are plastic and the new rods “rippled” to the point of vibrating when the stones are used wouldn’t this create wear on the holes in the stones, resulting in a loose fit over time?

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #50787

    Expidia
    Participant
    • Topics: 39
    • Replies: 270

    My WE is several years old. The stones are mounted on plastic. If the current stones are plastic and the new rods “rippled” to the point of vibrating when the stones are used wouldn’t this create wear on the holes in the stones, resulting in a loose fit over time?

    Thats what I commented on that singing makes so much noise IMO it will cause wear on the inside plastic diameter.  I might order stainless steel stock off the net and make my own of their newer diameter size that helps reduce any slop.

    Odawan which I pictured above must be using an old stock photo.

    Here is Kyle’s comment as he got right back to me.

     

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    #50789

    Bill Kirkley
    Participant
    • Topics: 18
    • Replies: 89

    If you want slightly larger than .25″ and don’t mind a steel that might rust you can order drill rod in metric or letter sizes.

    7FEC4A12-BA5F-48C5-91E2-A7DD39AA6BC9

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    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #50792

    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 33
    • Replies: 1779

    My WE is several years old. The stones are mounted on plastic. If the current stones are plastic and the new rods “rippled” to the point of vibrating when the stones are used wouldn’t this create wear on the holes in the stones, resulting in a loose fit over time?

    No, there won’t be any appreciable wear between the plastic and the steel.  Where you have a relatively polished hard material (steel in this case) against a soft (plastic) material, the interface is in slip mode, as opposed to traction.  This is why lightly loaded gears are often designed with steel against nylon or steel against brass.  You might get deformation of the softer material, but that would require a substantial force between them, simply not there is this application.

    By the way, I am pleased to see that WE has shortened the rod threads and the length of the female threaded end of the ball joints.  I suggested it in April of 2014.  At the time, I said that you only needed about three turns of the thread to hold the rod, as there is no side or axial loads of any significance.  I recently found one of my home-made rods was threaded at an angle, so the rod angle would change if it rotated in the ball joint.  I added a jam nut to lock it in position and it works just fine with only two threads of engagement.

    I rather enjoy the whistle. Oooeep!  Oooeep!  It’s music, and nothing to worry about.

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    #50793

    Bill Kirkley
    Participant
    • Topics: 18
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    tcmeyer. But aren’t steel shafts smooth?  I have not seen the new rods. They are described as rippled. One might describe a round file as rippled.  It would be interesting to post a photo, made with your microscope, of the ripples to see if they are smooth or sharp

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Bill Kirkley.
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