Chosera vs Shapton vs Lapping Film
- This topic has 18 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 06/12/2017 at 9:21 pm by
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Rich, I can only share my personal experience with Shapton Pro Stones and Shapton Glass Stones. I made my decision to buy and use the Shaptons based on watching YouTube videos posted by Tom Blodgett from Jende Industries and combing and reading through the many different sharpening forums available, out there. Tom uses both brand wetstones stones, side by side, and shows and discusses, the attributes and down side of sharpening with Choseras and Shaptons. He has a video on “Lapping” or leveling, cleaning and smoothing both brand stones as part of the necessary maintenance for all wetstones. There’s less material out there for the newer Shapton Glass Stones.
Both stones, Naniwa Choseras and Shaptons are wetstones, thus, are used with water. The Choseras, from what I’ve seen, are used and kept wetter than the Shaptons. The Shaptons are “spray and go”, that is I spritz the sharpening surface with water from a small spray bottle and use them till they feel dry and dragging or scratchy on the metal I’m sharpening. The Shaptons will continue to work and cut or polish the knives bevel while only just damp. They actually, IMO, scratch and polish better after they loose some of the initial wetness and the stones make better contact with the knives.
The Shaptons have “feed back” which is the feel up through the handles to your finger tips as you stroke the knives bevels. This feel or feed back I’m able to associate with how well the stone is working through the course of it’s strokes as it slides across the bevel I’m sharpening. There’s a distinctive good scratching feel, and sound, when the Shaptons are just the right amount of wet and are working their magic and a bad scratching feel, and sound, when they’re too dry.
The Choseras, from the videos I’ve seen, produce a mud or swarth on their surface which is what polishes and cuts the bevel metal. With the Shaptons the stone itself cuts and polishes the metal. The Shaptons don’t produce that mud slurry, hence I believe they’re cleaner to use. I have adopted the practice of working with a towel covered WE System to catch any throw off from the wetstones and particularly to absorb the mist from the spray bottle I reapply to the stone surfaces during their use.
The Shaptons get blackened with repeated use, collecting fine metal filings rendering them less effective to cut. The wetstones being softer than say, Diamond stones, wear and dish towards the center of the stones after using them on several knives. Then I lap the Shapton Wetstones to clean, smooth and level the surface. I lap the Shaptons Stones with a “Shaptons Glass Diamond Lapping Stone”. This leaves the Shaptons clean like new and incredibly smooth and level. Since lapping in essence is removing used stone surface, I use an “Angle Cube” for every stone grit change to check the micro-angle and correct for any minor angle differences. I like using the “Wixey WR300” for it’s light weight, repeatability and lack of magnets, since the wetstones are non-magnetic, anyway.
The wetsones, both Choseras and Shaptons are available in a full assortment of grit progression from coarse to very fine, covering the full gambit of particle size allowing their use in place of all other sharpening medias. I have obtained as polished a bevel with the 15K/30K Shapton Glass Stone as I have with the Diamond lapping films.
The initial investment with wetstones and lapping plates is higher than other sharpening media, with the Shapton Glass Stones full assortment the highest cost. The stones wear and will break or shatter if dropped. If used and maintained properly they will last for years and years.
I really believe the wetstones because of their nature, using them wet, allow sharpening some of the newer, harder, “High Speed Japanese Tool Steels” , with their harder carbides, being used to make knives today. The wetstones scratch pattern for a similar grit level, I believe, compared to other sharpening stones, are narrower, more predictable, more evenly spaced and less random in depth, (lacking those stray random deep scratches from other types of stones) which may lead to edge chipping and edge fall off.
To briefly compare Shapton Pro Stones with Shapton Glass Stones, the glass stones are slightly wider and flatter thus I find them easier to use. The Pro stones share the attributes of the Glass stones but due to their narrower foot print they may have a slight tendency to want to roll in your fingers on the bevel. The Glass Stones feel like the material is harder than the Pro Stones so they wear longer between lapping and for best results should be lapped with “Shaptons Glass Diamond Lapping Stones”. The Glass Stones lap to a really smooth, even, level surface, to an incredibly flat tolerance, more so than the Pro Stones. The Pro Stones are easier to lap and can be lapped to a proper smooth level surface with less expensive lapping stones, like the Atoma 1200.
The wetstones by themselves are a stand alone sharpening medium, from start (coarse grit) to finish (fine polishing grit). They can result in an incredibly sharp edge and shiny polished edge although they’re not necessarily use as a polishing medium. The Diamond lapping Films I use as an accessory to give that fine polished looking surface after I have followed my stone progression to the sharpness I’m looking for. The diamond film and wetstones both wear. The films are disposed and replaced whereas the Wetstones are resurfaced and used again and again. That being said I have to compare the investment and expense for years to really decide the merits of either based on cost or investment.
If I had to choose one medium based on my needs it would be the wetstones since I strive for sharp utility edges more than shiny polished appearing edges.
I hope my shared experience may give you some answers you are looking for.
Marc
Marc
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I don’t generally carry out the progression to 30K. I usually finish at the 8000 grit stone (6K/8K combination paddle). Lately I’ve been centering my efforts on very hard steel Japanese Chef’s knives, (ZDP189, HRc 65 and R2/SG2, HRc 63). Based on my recent experience, this steel sharpened to 14dps doesn’t seem to benefit from anything finer than the 8k stones. Also to emulate the scratch pattern of the initial sharpening done by the knives forger I use a more up/down stroke or slightly angled heel to tip and stay away from longitudinal strokes that more parallel the spine. As you try to take the progression finer I have experienced edge failure where the bevel simply falls away. There’s been some discussion on this forum zeroing in on carbide size maybe being the culprit.
To answer your question, I strop just about every edge. I feel it smoothes the toothiness giving the knife a slippery feel as it cuts and slides through food. If I don’t strop with the WE as a last step, I do use a strop as a touch-up in the kitchen, in between sharpenings.
Marc
(MarcH's Rack-Its)Rich, I think there’s more to it then coarser wetstones being softer than the harder, finer grit wetstones. Particle size of the abrasive material contributes to the depth and width of the scratch patterns. I do believe that some finer grit stones I’ve used felt like they were softer than the coarser grit stone they followed in the grit progression. I can’t compare the Chosera Stone’s hardness relative to Shaptons because I haven’t used them. I do believe the Shapton Glass Stones are harder, same grit for grit, than the Shapton Pro Stones. They are certainly harder and require more time and effort for lapping.
If you’re looking strictly for a mirror polished bevel, I assume that’s what you’re calling “refined”, then I recommend hands down the Diamond lapping films. In my experience the films let you attain that polished edge, the quickest and easiest route, with the least amount of time and effort. If you’re looking strictly for a sharp durable edge with out concern for residual scratches left on the bevel, then I like the wetstones. It you’re willing to put the time and effort in, you can get a refined bevel almost as good with the shaptons as with the lapping films.
I don’t think, based on my experience, that my sharpest, most durable, practicle working edge is the prettiest or most refined edge. There is a balance you’ll have to find for yourself. I’m working on that.
Hopefully Tom Blodgett will read this thread an straighten me out with reality over opinion.
Marc
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Marc,
I have NO experience with any wetstones currently. I am building my understanding strictly based upon others commentary. When I said soft and hard, that was an explanation of “feel” when being used. I assume this is partly due to the slurry which each stone produces. I am all about the journey, more than the destination. I truly enjoy the process using the WE system. This is part of the reason why I am exploring the wetstone path. I understand the the films are quicker and produce an exceptional final product, just trying to learn and understand.
Don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy the satisfaction of a mirror edge but also understand it is not the best for every application.
Also, I have been trying to find Tom Blodgett’s video comparing the chosera and shapton but have not been able to find it. If you could share a link it would be great! I have found the lapping video.
Your continued dialog is appreciated!!
**I know Clay has extensive experience with all wetstones. I would love to hear his input!! Thank you in advance!!!
I think these are the videos:
There are many videos if you search YouTube for Jende Industries LLC with a ton of good info. Even if the video is on conventional wetstones not Wicked Edge specific Wetstones the information and characteristics of the wetstones discussed still pertains.
Marc
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Wow, MarcH – That was a great explanation!
I don’t think there is much to add there!Both Shaptons and Choseras are like Lamborghini and Ferrari, so it’s a matter of personal taste. The only thing I would add is that Choseras are slightly more forgiving to the minute angle changes, especially at the 5K and 10K levels due to the paste that forms. On the Shapton Pro and Glass, the 5K and 6K+ grits require a greater degree of accuracy and cleanliness since the black swarf actually inhibits the action of the stones.
As for Diamonds, they get you the shine very quickly, but after 3 micron, you run the risk of stray scratches from dirt and cross contamination. We then enter the realm of scratch depths and seeing striations, depending on the steel, technique, and lots of other stuff.
It appears that the majority of users, not only WE, prefer the chosera over the shapton. Many of the comments were relative to the “feel” of the chosera. I am waiting for the 2000/3000 and 5000/10000 to arrive. I will give my opinion once I have some sharpenings behind me with them.
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It appears that the majority of users, not only WE, prefer the chosera over the shapton.
Possibly the price difference helps users choose the Choseras? I venture to guess “the most users” of wetstones, referred to above, have only used the type of wetstones they purchased and, like me, haven’t had the opportunity to experience both brands. It’s probably a small group that has used and experienced both to have the ability to have a preference.
I’ve only used the Shaptons and never used a Chosera so I have no preference. I really like using my Shaptons and the results I get and when I use them. I don’t know if one is better than the other having no basis of comparison. If my post seemed to suggest I preferred the Shaptons, for that I apologize.
Marc
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I have sharpened my first knife on the WEPS with a set of shapton pro stones I recently received from a very good friend that you all know on this forum. Now… shapton vs chosera… I can’t say which is superior but 10k on the chosera, 30k on the shaptons. Huh? I stopped my progression at 8000 with the shaptons. Very little mess due to the fact that you don’t have to soak the shaptons and they cut a lot quicker than I expected. The choseras require “slurry” to work properly from the videos I’ve seen and make quite a mess. I don’t know how you compare the 10k chosera to the 30k shaptons though. At 8000 with the shaptons there was almost no visible scratches at 14x mag. with a triplet loop. In fact when I stropped the edge after the 8000 shapton the only visible scratching was from the 1/.5 diamond emulsion on kangaroo that I used to finish the edge. I have used several systems in the past and have always found that wet stones, mainly Arkansas stones, has given me a superior edge vs the the diamond edge. I have to say that after using the shapton pro stones that I will not pursue the chosera stones. The time and mess that the choseras come with is not what I personally am looking for. I would be very interested in seeing pictures comparing the 30k shapton edge to the 10k chosera edge. Price… the shaptons cost about the same as choseras if you omit the 15/30k shapton stones. The shaptons start at 120 grit, chosera at 400 grit and in that case you finish with 10k chosera, 8000 with the shaptons. I don’t think that most people prefer one to the other. I do think that most people do have the money to compare one to the other. The 8000 edge that I got with the shapton stones is truly remarkable when you consider it was my first use. In the end you have to make the decision for yourself, but for me at least, there is more up side to the shapton stones! This is my personal opinion and is no way intended to offend or discourage or encourage anyone from or towards either medium.
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I appreciate everyone’s input and understand that this thread is subjective. There is not a clear cut better or worse, just different, and the same. I would love to hear from those who have used all, Shapton/Chosera/Lapping Film, and their opinion/comparison of each. I assume that there would not be different situations where shaptons would be used over chosera or vise versa. I would, however, assume that the lapping films could have a place following either.
I am truly enjoying the learning, discussion, experimentation.
Thank you to all for your commentary!!
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