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  • #35823
    Eduardo Pineres
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    Hi guys, ive been sharpening for a while but i just cant get that super polish mirror edge, here are the microscopic images if only anyone can tell me what im doing wrong.Antes

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    #35828
    Eduardo Pineres
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    the pictures are in order. First one is the before picture, diamond 200, diamond 400, diamond 600, diamond 800, diamond 1000, ceramic 1.4mu, ceramic 0.6mu, leather strop 1mu, leather strop 0.5mu

    Attachments:
    #35833
    Eduardo Pineres
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    and the last ones

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    #35838
    dulledge
    Participant
    • Topics: 12
    • Replies: 183

    People on this forum made many experiments and conclusion was that it is MUCH better to skip those ceramic stones. Instead of ceramic stones use diamond lapping films. You can use 9µ or 6µ lapping films after 1000 grit. Here is good advice from Clay (wickededge). Also some people said that it is better to use lapping films instead of strops too.

    Scroll this page to see lapping films. You will need blank handles. Here are aluminum platens and glass platens.

    Please post pictures of your mirror edges after you try lapping films.

    #35842
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    I don’t think the problem lies in the use of ceramic vs film.  If you’ll notice, the scratches in all subsequent photos are from the 1000-grit diamond stones. This is an example of what can happen if you don’t remove all of the scratches from the previous grit before moving on to the next grit.  As you go finer in grit, you have even less chance of removing those scratches and all of your time is wasted, and Eduardo goes all the way from 1000 to 1.4 micron, which is a very large jump and is likely to be unable to remove all the scratches from the 1000s, even if they were broken in.  Eduardo follows the rule very well, until he gets to the 1.4 ceramic stones.  He then moves on to the 0.6 micron ceramic before removing all the 1000-grit scratches.   They appear to me to be the deep scratches left by a set of stones which are not yet fully broken in.

    More stuff…  On studying the earlier grit photos (100, 200 & 400), you’ll see some big chunks missing along the apex.  These are usually caused by 100s and 200s, or by coarse (<400 grit) unbroken-in stones, and mostly by trailing edge strokes.  Eduardo must have spent a good bit of effort with his 400s and 600s to clean up that edge.   I never use my 100/200 stones unless I’m doing some significant profiling – and even then I try to avoid edge-trailing strokes.

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    #35844
    dulledge
    Participant
    • Topics: 12
    • Replies: 183

    I never use my 100/200 stones unless I’m doing some significant profiling – and even then I try to avoid edge-trailing strokes.

    On first picture before sharpening there is a dent. To remove such dent you need to remove a lot of metal along all edge. I guess that is why he used 200 grits. On 200 grits picture these are also original dents from knife use, aren’t they? Are you sure these are chunks from edge trailing 200 grit stone? If so, they look terrible. Thank you for pointing it out.

    BTW, several people are very happy about diamond lapping film:

    M1rrorEdge:  I have all the ceramic stones and once I identified the diamond film benefits (and used them), I no longer use the ceramics (They are “retired”-so to speak).   I have tried the strops, however, I prefer the films over the leather strops with diamond paste. Link

    Mark76: SInce I’ve discovered the diamond films I want nothing else – they’re great. Link

    tcmeyer: I don’t think there’s much doubt that diamond film gives you a more uniform finish than the ceramic stones and like you, I have retired my ceramics. Link 

    droc217: Got the lapping films. I feel like the ceramic stones were a complete and total waste of money … Link

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #35849
    Pinkfloyd
    Participant
    • Topics: 22
    • Replies: 208

    Great observation tcmeyer. I was also wondering about how much pressure is used in the early steps, they seem to be deep scratches. Also why are the scratch patterns more horizontal when going to the finer grits.

    #35855
    Eduardo Pineres
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    First off all thanks for the help. In fact the 100 and 200 are new. How can i broke in those stones.

    This is a kasumi titanium 8inches chef knife that had a 19 angle edge on each side and the owner wanted a more acute angle. He used to sharpen the knife manually but i think he didnt knew what he was doing because the edge was really messed up. So i decided to reprofile the edge and start with the 100 and 200 diamond stones.

    Am i stroking to hard? should i try whit less pressure? beside passing from 1000grit to 1.4mu ceramic what am i doing wrong?

    Thanks again for the help.

    #35856
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    Dulledge tries to make the point that film is superior to ceramic stones.  I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with the point, in fact we seem to agree.  In this case, that’s not the point.  Eduardo has what he has to work with and we’re trying to decide what his problem is and find a solution for him.  My suggestion is that he is trying to make too big of a jump from 1000 grit to 1.4 micron (about 13,000 grit) where his 1000 grit stones seem to not be fully broken-in.  Were his 1000 grit diamond stones to be fully broken-in, he’d probably see a more satisfying mirror bevel.  Yes, an intermediate step might be a big help (maybe a 9 or 6 micron film) but the fact remains that he may need to complete the break-in process for the 1000s first.

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    #35857
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    Eduardo:  If you’ll note the times on our last posts, you’ll see that they were almost simultaneous.  Are your 800/1000s fully broken-in?

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    #35859
    M1rrorEdge
    Participant
    • Topics: 8
    • Replies: 222

    Eduardo;

    Using the tools you have and by studying what your photos show, I agree with TCMEYER.  It is critical to remove the scratches from the previous diamond plates before moving on in the progression.  My results were similar when I started.

    When we say your stones may need to be broken in, we are saying that the diamonds on a new plate are not uniform in height (Right out of the box).  The theory (through observation) is that the micro diamonds that are “Standing Proud” on the plate are ripping away metal at the edge and leaving deeper scratches than the surrounding diamonds.  This is why we recommend that you break in your paddles on cheap knifes before using them on a new expensive knifes.

    Yes, I have found that less pressure is “more” when using diamonds to sharpen.  Diamonds are very aggressive on the soft metal in comparison to standard natural and synthetic stones which most people who spend the money on the WE have used before.  I like the diamonds plates for the ease of use, low maintenance, and quick metal removal.  However, using diamonds on metal needs a certain “finesse”.

    It is important to understand that even using the diamond lapping films, as the final polishing steps in your routine, you must remove the scratches from the previous plates in order to get the brilliant shine you expect at the end.  That is the purpose of the multiple plates and the sophisticated progression.

    Each additional step removes the scratches from the previous step until eventually you have little or no scratches that can be seen by the naked eye.

    Do you have the Super Fine 1200/1600 Grit Ceramic Stones?  You taking a big leap in your progression without it.

    Your not doing anything wrong, you just need practice….We have all been where you find yourself today.   This is why I check this forum every day and help where I can

    Eddie Kinlen
    M1rror Edge Sharpening Service, LLC
    +1(682)777-1622

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #35860
    Eduardo Pineres
    Participant
    • Topics: 2
    • Replies: 6

    I dont think so, all these are new, ive only sharpened 6 knives with them

    #35866
    tcmeyer
    Participant
    • Topics: 38
    • Replies: 2095

    Yes, it seems clear that you are still working with stones which have not been fully “broken-in.”  For me, I’ve found that my 800/1000 stones need to do closer to 20 knives, probably because they are used much less than coarser stones.  The 100/200s seem to take forever because I use them so seldom.  I just bought a complete set of new diamond platens (100 through 1000) and I won’t expect great results for awhile.  I think that most of us here on the forum have learned to buy a few really inexpensive kitchen knives from a local thrift shop to practice on and to break in new stones.  I don’t know what is available in Colombia, but I’m sure you can find a few “mules” to work on.  I have tried to hasten the break-in period by stoning on a section of glass held in my vise, but I was afraid to push it very hard and perhaps “dull” the base level of diamond particles.

    I see that in your first four photos, you seem to have been alternating stroke directions from 100 through 600 But then you continued the progression from 800 through the ceramic grits and strops without regard to the scratches and direction.  I just wanted to flag this because it suggests that maybe you didn’t fully understand the purpose.  Alternating directions from grit to grit shows us clearly that it’s OK to move on to the next grit when you’ve completely removed those scratches going in the opposite direction.

    On looking more closely at the photos, the deep scratches may have come from your 800 grit (and maybe also your 1000-grit) stones not being broken in.

    While early success encourages us to push the learning curve, I’d suggest that you work on perfecting your technique and continue to break-in your diamond stones before expecting great things from your super-fine stones and strops.  When a stone is completely broken-in, you’ll notice that the sound produced is free of clicks and bumps and scratchy noises.  You will also note that it becomes relatively easy to fully remove the scratches left by this stone when you go to the next grit.

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