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Need Help with Basics of Using Lapping Film

This topic contains 114 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  sksharp 08/27/2017 at 11:32 am.

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  • #39899

    Organic
    Participant

      Last I wanted to post this photo of the very fine scratches still visible on the highly polished, highly reflective bevel: Fine-Scratches If I was to focus on the reflection these scratches aren’t apparent.

      Do you see similarly visible scratches after the 1 micron lapping film? The scratch pattern changed significantly (and for the worse) after the 0.5 micron film based on your evidence. That is very counter intuitive.

      #39900

      MarcH
      Moderator

        Yes the tiny scratches are visible the whole progression.  That’s what prompted me to do this detailed study and photo documentation.  The counterintuitive results with the 0.5 micron film just unexpectedly happened during my documented learning process adding a separate issue to the discussion, which over shadowed my original purpose.  That was to find the answer “are there tiny visible scratches present in the spectacular photographs posted by individuals like Razors Edge?”  Is the excellent photographic technique and precise focusing able to avoid making these scratches from being visually evident?

        The tiny scratches weren’t evident in the previous photographs because I intentionally focused on the mirrored reflection to avoid making the scratches visible and make the mirror reflection the center of the photograph.  Is that what Josh and others are able to do?

        I don’t want this discussion to negate the fact that this knife is still incredibly, hair splitting sharp and I haven’t finished with it yet!  Thanks to the WEPS and all the accessories I’ve employed and the techniques I learned from others in this Wicked Edge Forum Community.

        Marc

        #39902

        wickededge
        Keymaster

          Can you easily remove those scratches by going back to the 1µ lapping film?

          -Clay

          #39904

          MarcH
          Moderator

            Can you easily remove those scratches by going back to the 1µ lapping film?

            Not easily, it did take some time and effort, but yes I was able to remove them.

            I did continue with the films, through the progression, ending with the 0.1 micron DLF.  Then I stropped with 1.0/0.5 cow leather with diamond emulsion.  Then unclamped the knife.  It’s very sharp, shiny and reflective.  Just it still has the mini scratches that don’t effect the cutting,  I believe, if I’m correct.  I got disillusioned with the diamond films and called it quits.   It’s hard not to achieve perfection, or close to perfect results when I’m OCD and a perfectionist.

            I guess I’ll order more DLF and try again another day.  Clay, I’ll do whatever you suggest I have nothing but time and the willingness to learn and succeed.

            I’m suffering with a luxury disorder.  In my opinion, my sharpening technique has gotten pretty good.  I kept buying different kitchen knives with the excuse I was attempting to learn which style knife I liked to use. Then my excuse was to learn which steels I preferred for ease of sharpening, actual sharpness, edge retention and durability.  I’ve run out of space to keep them all and excuses to buy another one.  They’re all really sharp and with so many, even if I chose a different knife to use every meal, everyday, I can’t use them enough to make them dull or make an excuse to need to sharpen them.  I’ve sharpened, re-sharpened, and refined the edges.  Now I’m concerned I’ll ruin a perfectly good knife or waste good steel by sharpening an already sharp knife, again.

            Thus I’m starting to collect, inexpensive pocket knives!!! This will feed my need to sharpen.  Many of you can understand this enjoyment I get from sharpening.  It’s a Zen sort of thing.  There’s a ton of EDC knives out there for under $20 and folding pocket knives I can through in a drawer and not cut myself when reaching in there.  I can hide a lot of pocket knives in one drawer, too.

             

            Marc

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            #39906

            wickededge
            Keymaster

              MarcH, you’re cracking me up. I’ll have to do some testing as soon as I can w/ the .5µ to see if I get similar results. I’ll post what I learn.

              -Clay

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              #39907

              tcmeyer
              Participant

                Hi Marc:

                About ten or fifteen years ago, I was buying some stuff from Grizzly.  They had a special on their “Z-knife” made by Junglee.  About $6 or $7 bucks each.  I ordered a dozen or so and thereafter I always had one in my pocket – my first “EDC”.  When meeting one of my brothers, brothers-in-law, cousins, friends, etc., if they didn’t have a knife in their pocket, I give them the one I had in my pocket.  I think I’ve bought one or two dozen more since then.  I ended up with seven that I use regularly.  One sits at every TV chair or workstation in my home.  When I notice that they aren’t razor-sharp anymore, the whole bunch makes a visit to the WEPS.  I see that Grizzly has them on sale again for $9, marked down from $19.  Check ’em out here.  Great practice or experimentation knives.

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                #39908

                MarcH
                Moderator

                  Thanks for the suggestion Tom. I’ll pick one up.  I think I’ll start a new thread for favorite EDC under $20.

                  Marc

                  #39996

                  Readheads
                  Participant

                    I’ll throw my 2 cents in here:

                    I use the Alum Oxide films and did a Magnified Progression a while back wondering about the films after the 1500 diamond paddle. I noticed that the film scratch patterns were somewhat inconsistent to my expectation of finer and finer. I did not go any further but now have more time avail and will take a look. A few thoughts:

                    1. The difficulties (clumping) Clay had mentioned a while back in producing the 1500 paddles which preclude producing 2000 paddles most likely are still prevalent in producing films.
                    2. It would be interesting to see virgin film under magnification. My max is 250x USB but Clay’s 1000x may show the particulate population.
                    3. I wonder what the film manufacturer uses for his Quality Control to determine Pass/Fail. There should be some type of normal distribution curve showing frequency distribution of particulate size although I would expect a “smoothness-type” measurement to be non-trivial.
                    4. As we get smaller and smaller these things get trickier
                    5. Composite1
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                    #39998

                    MarcH
                    Moderator

                      Thanks Readheads.  I too, am repeating my sharpening process, (ie, edge study), and documentation with a higher degree of care than my first try.  I’ll post it when I’m finished.

                      Marc

                      #40001

                      wickededge
                      Keymaster

                        I just put a 9µ sheet and a 1.5µ sheet under the scope at 2000x. It’s pretty interesting and not surprising:

                        Film-2000x-sm
                        Here is the 9µ sheet.

                        Film-2000x-sm
                        Here is the 1.5µ sheet.

                        It looks from these two photos that there is in fact a lot of agglomeration going on with the 1.5µ sheet but it’s important to note that these are only two images, taken very quickly and a lot more research and analysis would need to be done to say anything conclusive about any of the films. When I get some free time, or an assistant, I’ll dig deeper into the films.

                        -Clay

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                        #40004

                        MarcH
                        Moderator

                          I imagine it’s a real manufacturing challenge to maintain the abrasive particle’s density, spacing and placement on the film so it is similar for all size abrasives across the product line.

                          We’re also evaluating our results with close scrutiny of a non-standardized process, hand polishing, done in a non-standardized progression.  We may be exercising a high degree of care in our polishing technique and try to do this in a closely repetitive manner, but it’s still hand polishing.

                          Also, our evaluating process is not standardized.  Mine by hand holding an USB Microscope against the knife bevel, can easily scratch my viewing or sampling area and corrupt my results.

                          Marc

                          #40035

                          MarcH
                          Moderator

                            I was working on an EDC with DLF, photo documenting each step along the way.  The knife is extremely sharp.  Plenty sharp for everyday use.  I was trying to put a “show-off” quality near-perfect polish job on it.  I was taking my time but still I wasn’t doing as good a job as I wanted.  I had too many underlying scratches coming to the surface as I’d progress to the finer films, so I kept stepping back down to the previous lower coarser grits to clear up the scratched bevels.  Then I saw I had damaged the bevel somehow.  You can see the bevel is smooth and well polished but still there’s a couple very fine scratches.

                            Damaged-Edge-250x

                            So I’m back to the beginning.  “Do over”!

                            Marc

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                            #40073

                            wickededge
                            Keymaster

                              MarcH – How do you think you damaged it?

                              -Clay

                              #40076

                              MarcH
                              Moderator

                                I had been using edge trailing strokes with the DLF.   When I do edge trailing, up and off, I do not use upper stone stops, to limit my stone travel, because it doesn’t matter when my stone slides up and off the edge.  After choosing to step back down, another time, to the previous lower grits, because I thought I saw very fine underlying scratches, had come to the surface, I decided to try to employ a scrubbing motion with the DLF with a very, very light pressure.  Tricky to do, it was seeming to work well and I wasn’t cutting into or shaving the film.  I got comfortable with the motion and I was moving more quickly, with a longer and longer stroke, then on the last up-scrub, without the top stone travel-stops secured on the rod ends, I slid past the knife edge, above and off, completely with the stone.  Not realizing it, because I was in a rhythm I reversed to my down-scrub and bumped right down against the knife edge of the finely polished bevel!!!  Operator error.

                                Back to 500 grit to begin again.

                                This is why I started using “stone stops”, both, below the stone and above the stone to limit and center my stones range of motion, up and down.

                                 

                                Marc

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                                #40079

                                wickededge
                                Keymaster

                                  Ah. That’s tragic…

                                  -Clay

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